--- Log opened Thu Mar 09 18:22:56 2006
18:22 -!- dsd_ [n=dsd@gentoo/developer/dsd] has joined #gentoo-council
18:22 -!- Irssi: #gentoo-council: Total of 9 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
18:22 -!- Irssi: Join to #gentoo-council was synced in 1 secs
18:23 -!- Halcyon [n=halcy0n@pdpc/supporter/active/Halcy0n-gentoo] has joined #gentoo-council
18:32 -!- cshields [n=cshields@osuosl/staff/cshields] has joined #gentoo-council
18:53 < dsd_> which gleps are voted on tonight?
18:53 < dsd_> 42 and 44?
18:55 <@Koon> tyhat's what I have
18:55 <@Koon> but I didn't read all gentoo-dev so I might have missed some vote requests
18:55 <@Koon> back in 10 minutes
18:57 <@SwifT> damned, 42 has been improved since I last read it
19:00 -!- vapier [i=UserBah@wh0rd.org] has joined #gentoo-council
19:00 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o vapier] by ChanServ
19:00 -!- Netsplit adams.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Lejban
19:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Lejban
19:02 -!- seemant [n=trinity@gentoo/developer/seemant] has joined #gentoo-council
19:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o seemant] by ChanServ
19:02 <@seemant> hi all, dsd_ is my proxy
19:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o dsd_] by seemant
19:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-o seemant] by seemant
19:03  * vapier touches seemant's proxy
19:03 <@Koon> vapier: proxies are not toys
19:04 -!- agriffis [n=agriffis@gentoo/developer/agriffis] has joined #gentoo-council
19:04 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o agriffis] by ChanServ
19:05 <@dsd_> abuse!
19:06 < cshields> greetings all!  I'll be standing in for solar
19:06 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o cshields] by Koon
19:06 <@SwifT> 'evening both of you
19:07 <@cshields> or morning..  ;)
19:07 <@vapier> dsd_: it's only abuse if you didnt like it
19:07 <@Koon> who wants to chair ? I may have to leave early so I prefer not to
19:08 <@vapier> i may have to jet, work has meetings on me today
19:08 <@vapier> but i think we only have the manifest2 glep today correct ?
19:08 <@SwifT> and news thingie
19:08 <@vapier> the news thing wasnt requested i thought
19:08 <@Koon> well it all depends if we consider we should vote on glep 42 too
19:08 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+m] by Koon
19:08 <@SwifT> if I can believe Koon and dsd
19:09 <@dsd_> SwifT: dont listen to me
19:09 <@vapier> lets do GLEP 44 first :P
19:09 <@Koon> easy cake: yes
19:09 <@SwifT> 1
19:09 <@vapier> i think all our maybes and such were covered sufficiently on the list
19:09 <@cshields> solar votes yes
19:09 <@Koon> anyone covering up azarah's ass ?
19:09 <@vapier> any last questions ? (and if you have one i kill you for not asking it on the dev list)
19:10 <@SwifT> that's blackmail
19:10 <@dsd_> i vote yes (on seemant's behalf)
19:10 <@agriffis> yes to 42
19:10 <@vapier> ok, i'll just poke you, i wont kill you :p
19:10 <@Koon> agriffis: current itam is 44
19:11 <@vapier> i'm for 42 as well
19:11 <@agriffis> I meant 44, sorry
19:11 <@vapier> adsflkajsdfl 44
19:11  * vapier blames agriffis
19:11 <@Koon> ok then we have a winner
19:12 <@Koon> up to GLEP 42, wit the traditional question: should we really vote on it given it's not been properly submitted
19:12 <@SwifT> oh well, no then
19:12 <@Koon> I propose that we emit an opinion and raise any question we may have, and pompously vote on it next month
19:13 <@cshields> solar touched on this in an email, but to me it seems to be missing an implementation plan.   If it is voted on (and approved) it may end up sitting for a while without any action.  We made a similar mistake with the webiste redesign vote long ago
19:13 <@Koon> cshields: unfortunately we cannot really enforce implementation plan
19:13 <@vapier> we can
19:13 <@Koon> it needs someone to pick it up
19:13 -!- Netsplit adams.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Lejban
19:13 <@vapier> we dont approve it w/out an implementation plan :P
19:13 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Lejban
19:14 <@cshields> Koon: you don't need to -enforce- one..  but some kind of a plan would be nice  :)
19:14 <@Koon> then we can emit a favorable opinion on the content but require some implementation details to accept it
19:14 <@cshields> I could glep that we all get $100k/yr for doing gentoo, and it may sound good and have rationale behind it, but without a plan to implement it will probably never happen  :)
19:14 <@Koon> I vote yes on that one
19:14 <@SwifT> who knows
19:14 <@vapier> details that the portage team is cool with ... but from genone's e-mails, seems they wont have much trouble with it
19:15 -!- spb [n=spb@gentoo/developer/spb] has quit [Client Quit]
19:15 -!- spb [n=spb@gentoo/developer/spb] has joined #gentoo-council
19:15 <@vapier> has infra weighed in on it ?
19:15 <@Koon> cshields ^
19:16 <@cshields> vapier: most of us are in favor of the concept (cause we get bit in the ass when something changes drastically and we're not aware..)
19:16 <@dsd_> does ciaran regard it as complete? there may be a reason it hasnt been properly submitted
19:16 <@cshields> but, we aren't going to have to write the code behind it either  ;)
19:16 <@agriffis> it looks like only goodness for infra, not much required on their end and lots of benefit.
19:16 <@vapier> dsd_: he posted it as "final draft"
19:16 <@Koon> dsd_: it's just a little late
19:16 <@cshields> agriffis: exactly
19:16 <@dsd_> k
19:16 <@vapier> and he said "he'd like for it to come our way soon"
19:17 <@cshields> so I guess my question is, was ciaranm's proposal such that he would do the work for it?
19:17 <@agriffis> anyway, it should be enough for now to say that we're in favor but where is the implementation plan, who is going to do the work, etc?
19:17 <@cshields> agreed
19:17 <@dsd_> agreed
19:18 <@Koon> yes, those precisions might raise interesting questions
19:18 <@agriffis> this is looking like a nice short meeting.
19:19 <@Koon> OK, any more comment on glep 42 ?
19:19 <@Koon> or we can open up traditional Q&A
19:19 <@vapier> i got nothin more, looks like the previous flame threads covered 42 well
19:20 <@Koon> I've that concern about active maintainers falling below critical mass as far as security work is concerned, but I guess we can put that in Q&A
19:20 <@Koon> ok, opening up
19:20 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-m] by Koon
19:21 <@vapier> someone mentioned that the monthly cronjob e-mail i send out is too late
19:21 <@vapier> i was thinking of a pre-pre-e-mail
19:21 <@Koon> good idea
19:21 <@vapier> to be sent out like the 25th of each month
19:21 <@Koon> we could send it now :)
19:21 <@SwifT> =)
19:21 <@SwifT> only two weeks until the deadline :)
19:22 <@vapier> 25th work ?
19:22 <@SwifT> so something like "deadline is today"
19:23 <@Koon> I'm a little concerned about the current state of our maintainers. I feel we fell below critical mass and now it takes too much time (from security PoV) to get fixes in. Someone proposed that a QA team with teeth could be called in that cases
19:23 <@Koon> we used to have a 48 hours maximal turnout to get fixed ebuilds
19:23 <@Koon> those days it's more like a week
19:24 <@vapier> so if a maintainer fails to cover a security bug within 48 hours, the QA team is allowed to handle it ?
19:24 <@Koon> add to that arch stableization work and low manpower in security... and we fall behind major distros
19:24 <@Koon> I don't say that's a solution, I just want to know if you noticed the same problem
19:25 <@SwifT> is it because we are losing maintainers or because our ebuild set is increasing?
19:25 <@Koon> Our last solution, the hall of shame on #gentoo-dev, didn't solve anything :)
19:25 <@Koon> it's because we are losing active maintainers
19:25 <@Koon> (IMHO)
19:25 <@agriffis> I don't mind the idea of letting a group handle security bugs if the maintainer isn't paying attention, but I don't like the phrase "QA team with teeth" at all.
19:25 <@dsd_> fwiw, i've been thinking about the topic of opening the developer community recently, with the aim of increasing contribution flow. its a big thing to think about though
19:25 <@vapier> nobody reads /topic in channels
19:26 <@cshields> especially #-dev
19:26 <@Koon> we used to have sufficient new blood to cover maintainers going stale
19:26 <@cshields> the /topic is a novel there
19:27 <@Koon> well, security can't force maintainers to do their homework... and with low manpower can't hunt them down everytime
19:27 <@Koon> vapier: take the games herd for exmaple :P
19:27 <@vapier> yeah, i have those labeled in my TODO e-mail box :P
19:27 <@vapier> but i have a lot in that box
19:28 <@SwifT> mine is symlinked to /dev/null
19:28 <@Koon> we/I used to be sufficiently active to remind everyone passing by IRC to do their work... but not anymore
19:28 < Halcyon> I didn't intend on QA to fix security issues.  I figured the security team would handle that portion of "QA".
19:28 <@Koon> and some people just don't pass by IRC
19:29 <@vapier> a weekly gentoo-dev e-mail reminder /
19:29 <@Koon> tss
19:29 < Halcyon> And you guys will have that proposal maybe by the next meeting to go over :)  (for the QA team)
19:29 <@Koon> that's not something that will be solved today, just so that you know that we are slowly falling behind
19:30 <@Koon> sometimes even mandriva releases advisories before us. (shame)
19:30 <@vapier> ouch
19:30 <@Koon> vapier: fedora legacy is still behind us though :)
19:31 <@Koon> and Ubuntu's always first
19:31 <@SwifT> :)
19:31 <@Koon> what would I do if I was a millionaire
19:31 <@SwifT> stop spending time with Gentoo? :)
19:32 <@Koon> OK, any more rant/question ?
19:32 <@Koon> Halcyon: about security team, we usually don't have portage commit rights
19:32 <@agriffis> Koon: it would be good to get a little more raw data regarding the stuff you're bringing up.
19:33 <@agriffis> Koon: rather than just a feeling, I mean numbers, averages, comparisons with other distros, typical blocking factors (again with numbers), etc.
19:33 <@SwifT> I wxant my 100I want my $100k
19:33 <@SwifT> err
19:33 <@SwifT> stupid network
19:34 <@cshields> SwifT: you'll have to glep that..
19:34 <@Koon> agriffis: I have a script that extracts out-of-delay GLSAs for each month
19:34 < Halcyon> Koon: hmm, then we might be able to work something out where the QA team could commit on your behalf, but we also don't have enough manpower to handle everything as well :)
19:34 <@Koon> We used to be 85% intime, that fell down to 50% and I didn't ru nthe stats for last month yet
19:34 < Halcyon> Koon: you publish these stats online somewhere?
19:35 <@SwifT> Koon: what about a GWN request for interested parties? or a security tester team?
19:35 <@Koon> the script also ranks the arches from most quick to slowest
19:35 < Halcyon> Koon: I'd be interested to see that :)
19:35 <@Koon> heh
19:35  * Koon tries to find that script again
19:36 <@cshields> I'd recommend using events like LWE to recruit people.  A lot of high-end users just don't realize that they too can contribute.
19:36 <@cshields> vapier: you'll be there, right?  ^^
19:37 < Halcyon> There will be a few of us :)
19:37 <@agriffis> Koon: That's the kind of data I'm talking about.  Get that published somewhere (the data, not the script, nobody else is going to run it) and keep enhancing it to include more information, graphs over time, etc.
19:37 <@Koon> I have to do some searches to find that script. Some perl that goes iver Bugzilla changelogs
19:37 <@agriffis> Koon: I think that would be very interesting.
19:37 <@Koon> agriffis: ok will do
19:38 < Halcyon> Koon: I'd like to see if the x86 team helped with x86's response time at all.
19:38 < Halcyon> I'm sure the arch teams would like to know how well they are responding.
19:38 <@Koon> Halcyon: yes it did. x86 was usually not top-ranked, now it is
19:39 <@cshields> gentlement, I have to run.  thanks for letting me sit in for solar
19:39 <@vapier> i'll be at LWE
19:39 <@vapier> i gotta jet as well
19:39 <@vapier> poof
19:39 -!- vapier [i=UserBah@wh0rd.org] has left #gentoo-council []
19:40  * Koon just got that script again
19:41 <@Koon> misses a few perl modules and should be ready to go
--- Log closed Thu Mar 09 19:42:25 2006
--- Log opened Thu Mar 09 19:42:57 2006
19:42 -!- dsd_ [n=dsd@cpc1-with3-3-0-cust110.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #gentoo-council
19:42 -!- Irssi: #gentoo-council: Total of 13 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]
19:43 -!- Irssi: Join to #gentoo-council was synced in 34 secs
19:43 <@Koon> argh, where the fuck is LWP-UserAgent
19:44 <@Koon> anyway I'll post more when I run those scripts
19:44 <@Koon> gtg
19:44 -!- agriffis [n=agriffis@gentoo/developer/agriffis] has left #gentoo-council []
19:44 <@Koon> someone please post the log and summary
19:45  * Koon does no logs
19:45 <@Koon> I usually prefer to forget
19:45 -!- Koon [n=koon@gentoo/developer/Koon] has quit ["*plop*"]