Jan 11 12:00:09 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:00:17 *	robbat2 sets mode +m #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:00:56 robbat2	ok, it's time folks
Jan 11 12:00:57 kingtaco|work	roll-call
Jan 11 12:01:01 *	kingtaco|work is here
Jan 11 12:01:11 kloeri	hi all
Jan 11 12:01:29 *	wolf31o2|mobile is here
Jan 11 12:01:32 robbat2	Kugelfang, SpanKY, vapier: pingy
Jan 11 12:01:42 kingtaco|work	no uberlord?
Jan 11 12:01:45 kingtaco|work	for flameeyes?
Jan 11 12:01:49 *	You've invited UberLord to #gentoo-council (zelazny.freenode.net)
Jan 11 12:02:10 *	iluxa (n=anonymou@gentoo/developer/iluxa) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:02:13 *	You've invited Uber to #gentoo-council (zelazny.freenode.net)
Jan 11 12:02:20 *	antarus (n=antarus@gentoo/developer/antarus) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:02:32 *	kingtaco|work has changed the topic to: Next meeting: NOW
Jan 11 12:02:40 Kugelfang	orly?
Jan 11 12:03:16 kingtaco|work	5 of 7
Jan 11 12:03:31 kingtaco|work	lets get the shindig started
Jan 11 12:03:33 *	DrEeevil (i=dreeevil@gentoo/user/bonsaikitten) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:03:42 robbat2	anybody got an Agenda? I didn't see one posted
Jan 11 12:03:50 kingtaco|work	I don't
Jan 11 12:03:59 Kugelfang	robbat2: i have two thingsw
Jan 11 12:04:04 Kugelfang	actually, three
Jan 11 12:04:06 kloeri	there haven't been any agenda posted afaik
Jan 11 12:04:09 Kugelfang	one minute
Jan 11 12:04:12 *	Uber (n=uberlord@rsm.demon.co.uk) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:04:20 *	kloeri gives channel operator status to Uber
Jan 11 12:04:20 wolf31o2|mobile	I have something I would like to propose, too...
Jan 11 12:04:23 *	Uber waves
Jan 11 12:04:28 kloeri	welcome Uber
Jan 11 12:04:29 Kugelfang	hey Roy :-)
Jan 11 12:04:43 Uber	everyone knows I'm proxy for diego?
Jan 11 12:04:45 kingtaco|work	da
Jan 11 12:04:49 kloeri	yup
Jan 11 12:05:03 robbat2	i don't see g2boojum here today, so I'll do the conducting if nobody else wants to
Jan 11 12:05:19 kingtaco|work	goforit
Jan 11 12:05:22 Kugelfang	yes
Jan 11 12:05:51 robbat2	ok, since there was no agenda, lets just go alpha order down the list, and let each person list their things for the agenda quicly
Jan 11 12:05:55 robbat2	KingTaco, anything?
Jan 11 12:06:09 kingtaco|work	not at the moment
Jan 11 12:06:12 robbat2	kloeri, 
Jan 11 12:06:23 kloeri	nothing
Jan 11 12:06:28 robbat2	Kugelfang, your items you mentioned?
Jan 11 12:06:32 Kugelfang	ok
Jan 11 12:06:40 Kugelfang	first: EAPI0 document
Jan 11 12:06:48 kingtaco|work	QA stuff?
Jan 11 12:06:49 Kugelfang	spb had been asked to do it.
Jan 11 12:06:52 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: yes
Jan 11 12:07:00 kingtaco|work	ok
Jan 11 12:07:08 Kugelfang	he's done quite some work, it's not yet completely ready
Jan 11 12:07:21 kingtaco|work	is it posted somewhere?
Jan 11 12:07:27 Kugelfang	i have access to it, but i may no publish it yet
Jan 11 12:07:40 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: nope, there needs to be some work done, it's very promising already though
Jan 11 12:07:44 kloeri	I have access as well but same conditions
Jan 11 12:07:46 kingtaco|work	it'd be nice if people could view and comment
Jan 11 12:07:48 Kugelfang	it's an 30page pdf document right now :-)
Jan 11 12:07:54 Kugelfang	s/an/a/
Jan 11 12:08:31 robbat2	does he have a rough timeline for having it more done?
Jan 11 12:08:33 Kugelfang	i just wanted to mention it, to contradict Diego's statement from planet.gentoo.org
Jan 11 12:08:36 kingtaco|work	I'm not a fan of the secrecy
Jan 11 12:08:44 kloeri	I think the idea of keeping it restricted right now is to get the bigger picture finished before getting into large discussions about minor details
Jan 11 12:08:45 *	ferringb (n=bharring@c-71-236-224-243.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:08:54 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: he wants to have it done _completely_ before discussions starts on parts
Jan 11 12:09:12 kingtaco|work	ok
Jan 11 12:09:17 robbat2	ok, so long as that doesn't limit input being taken into account later
Jan 11 12:09:17 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: once it's done, it'll be as open as anything else.. he just doesn't consider it done yet
Jan 11 12:09:20 wolf31o2|mobile	as much as I'm all for openness... I can understadn that one
Jan 11 12:09:21 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:09:33 kingtaco|work	I wont vote on it until it has suitable time in public review
Jan 11 12:09:41 kloeri	I actually agree with keeping it restricted for now personally
Jan 11 12:09:49 Kugelfang	he wanted to have a draft ready for tonight, but didn't quite make it as far as i understood
Jan 11 12:10:01 kloeri	and there'll be plenty of opportunity to comment on it and refine parts later
Jan 11 12:10:06 Kugelfang	exactly
Jan 11 12:10:08 kingtaco|work	...ok
Jan 11 12:10:09 robbat2	ok, thats fine for the moment
Jan 11 12:10:16 Kugelfang	that was my first point
Jan 11 12:10:28 Kugelfang	second point: /usr/libexec
Jan 11 12:10:34 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:10:44 Kugelfang	Diego and vapier had a discussion about that, and i promised to bring up a document for it
Jan 11 12:10:58 Kugelfang	something that's a standard for where to put things in a gentoo installation
Jan 11 12:11:11 Kugelfang	i initally wanted to just make a little patch for the devmanual
Jan 11 12:11:40 Kugelfang	however, i've changed my mind and think that we should have a proper document similar to the FHS document
Jan 11 12:11:47 *	Calchan (n=Calchan@84.7.124.48) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:12:07 Kugelfang	not as long as that, but one document that says: these files belong here and not there
Jan 11 12:12:24 Kugelfang	however, i think also that i'm not up to the job, at least not alone
Jan 11 12:12:38 Kugelfang	this is where Uber comes into the equations, as i was going to ask him
Jan 11 12:12:56 Kugelfang	Uber: are you interested in helping out on that, as one of the primary baselayout maintainers?
Jan 11 12:13:02 *	marienz (n=marienz@gentoo/developer/marienz) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:13:47 Kugelfang	(I also take anybody else's help/input on writing such a document :D)
Jan 11 12:13:49 Uber	Kugelfang: i'm only really interested in keeping / as small as we can - dont't really care where packages put things outside of that
Jan 11 12:13:57 Kugelfang	nod
Jan 11 12:14:20 kloeri	I like the idea of a proper document explaining all of that as devs are quite often confused about some details
Jan 11 12:14:29 Uber	but if you ask where I think something ought to go I'm happy to give an opinion
Jan 11 12:14:41 Kugelfang	Uber: nod, thank you
Jan 11 12:15:36 Kugelfang	anybody who wants to help can just contact me after this meeting so we can think on how to set it up
Jan 11 12:15:51 kingtaco|work	robbat2, at the next break I do have one short thing to bring up
Jan 11 12:16:07 robbat2	kingtaco|work, ok, after kugelfang's 3rd item
Jan 11 12:16:10 Kugelfang	i have done some work on /usr/{local,libexec} already, but there is a lot of stuff in the filesystem hierarchy :-(
Jan 11 12:16:11 kingtaco|work	kk
Jan 11 12:16:28 Kugelfang	that was point 2, i fnobody has anything to add to it
Jan 11 12:16:36 robbat2	nope, sounds like a solid plan to me
Jan 11 12:16:57 Kugelfang	point 3 would be: Diego stepping down as developer and along that: stepping down as council member
Jan 11 12:17:08 kingtaco|work	Kugelfang, that's my "-point"
Jan 11 12:17:12 kloeri	Diego isn't retiring yet
Jan 11 12:17:13 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: pff
Jan 11 12:17:35 Kugelfang	kloeri: well, i want to quote him from today earlier in this channel
Jan 11 12:17:41 kloeri	he's taking a two week vacation from Gentoo right now to sort out his thoughts on all this
Jan 11 12:17:43 Kugelfang	kloeri: (this might have changed in the meantime though)
Jan 11 12:17:49 kloeri	it has changed
Jan 11 12:17:59 Kugelfang	kloeri: 12:17 <@FlAFKeyes> tonight I'll leave uberlord to be my "proxy", as I hope not to be a dev anymore by that time anyway
Jan 11 12:18:01 kingtaco|work	my only question there is according to the metastructure glep, do we have to hold an election, can we bring someone in, or do we take the #8 spot(uber)
Jan 11 12:18:03 Kugelfang	kloeri: oh, ok
Jan 11 12:18:09 Kugelfang	kloeri: that's cool :-)
Jan 11 12:18:10 robbat2	his blog post earlier clarified it a lot
Jan 11 12:18:18 kloeri	seemant talked to him and they decided that a vacation + removing commit access meanwhile was the way to go for now
Jan 11 12:18:31 wolf31o2|mobile	If/when he does... I think we just follow the same guidelines the trustees initiated... go with the next guy in the vote...
Jan 11 12:18:35 Kugelfang	as i said, i had been taking a nap before this very meeting started, so i'm probably 1.5 hours back :-)
Jan 11 12:18:39 kloeri	so I've removed his commit access and Diego seems very happy about that decision
Jan 11 12:18:43 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: excellent, that was my very point
Jan 11 12:18:53 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: incidently, this would be Uber i think
Jan 11 12:19:00 wolf31o2|mobile	it would be
Jan 11 12:19:03 kingtaco|work	wolf31o2|mobile, someone should check that that's what the glep proscribes
Jan 11 12:19:12 kloeri	just don't elect a new council member before he's actually retired :)
Jan 11 12:19:19 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|laptop: I think you just volunteered.... ;]
Jan 11 12:19:24 wolf31o2|mobile	kloeri: we aren't
Jan 11 12:19:31 Kugelfang	kloeri: didn't want that, i just wanted to have everything settled :-)
Jan 11 12:19:38 kloeri	nod
Jan 11 12:19:51 Kugelfang	kloeri: i'm not too fond of losing him in the first place :-(
Jan 11 12:19:57 wolf31o2|mobile	me, either
Jan 11 12:19:57 kloeri	indeed
Jan 11 12:20:20 Kugelfang	he's contributions are in the region of vapier's from a monthly base, maybe a bit higher even
Jan 11 12:20:27 Kugelfang	his
Jan 11 12:20:29 Kugelfang	not he's
Jan 11 12:20:33 kloeri	I hope a vacation will relieve some of the stress he's been feeling the past few months and that he'll come back with a fresh view of things
Jan 11 12:20:45 Kugelfang	ok, there were my things for the table tonight
Jan 11 12:20:48 Kugelfang	thank you very much
Jan 11 12:20:59 kloeri	he's the top committer for 2006
Jan 11 12:21:12 wolf31o2|mobile	Kugelfang: his are higher than vapier, actually... he's over vapier for 2006 by like 4000... heh
Jan 11 12:21:16 wolf31o2|mobile	kloeri has the stats
Jan 11 12:21:21 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: aye
Jan 11 12:21:35 kloeri	yeah, he's beating vapier by quite a few commits
Jan 11 12:21:36 kingtaco|work	"If a council member who has been marked a slacker misses any further meeting (or their appointed proxy doesn't show up), they lose their position and a new election is held to replace that person. The newly elected council member gets a 'reduced' term so that the yearly elections still elect a full group."
Jan 11 12:21:38 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: you know, this is the kind of thing you deem impossible until you see it
Jan 11 12:21:56 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: yes, but this would be a voluntary step down
Jan 11 12:22:00 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: if he does it
Jan 11 12:22:06 kingtaco|work	Kugelfang, the glep doesn't address it
Jan 11 12:22:20 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|laptop: that covers slackers... not someone leaving, though... we should clarify this and add it explicitly to the document... even if we decide to use the same as the slacker boot
Jan 11 12:22:22 Kugelfang	anyway, as he's not doing it, i'm all for postponing that discussion, though i started it
Jan 11 12:22:23 kingtaco|work	that's the closest thing in the glep
Jan 11 12:22:38 kingtaco|work	Kugelfang, naw, we need to discuss it
Jan 11 12:22:53 robbat2	it will probably come up in future
Jan 11 12:22:59 Kugelfang	nod
Jan 11 12:22:59 wolf31o2|mobile	right
Jan 11 12:23:03 kingtaco|work	anyway, we need to modify that glep for someone who resigns
Jan 11 12:23:11 wolf31o2|mobile	definitely
Jan 11 12:23:14 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: want to bring up a patch?
Jan 11 12:23:25 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: for discussion at next meeting?
Jan 11 12:23:32 kingtaco|work	I don't have a preference personally, but the glep seems to indicate that a new vote be done for anyone leaving
Jan 11 12:23:49 robbat2	i think email the question to -dev, and let's put it on the agenda for next month
Jan 11 12:23:55 kingtaco|work	ok
Jan 11 12:23:57 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: good plan
Jan 11 12:23:58 kingtaco|work	or -core
Jan 11 12:24:02 Kugelfang	i would not like to do that, but rather use the people next on the ballot
Jan 11 12:24:06 kingtaco|work	it doesn't apply to non-gentoo dev
Jan 11 12:24:06 Kugelfang	the original ballot
Jan 11 12:24:21 robbat2	i see pros and cons on both ideas
Jan 11 12:24:36 Uber	we already discussed this before and I think we said we could use the first ballot results
Jan 11 12:24:40 wolf31o2|mobile	Kugelfang: that's my thought on it, too... because we'd be down a man until the vote is done... which isn't the best solution... but I also think it's a good idea for us to get some discussion on it... likely, people will agree with us
Jan 11 12:24:49 kingtaco|work	the "spirit" of the glep would be to hold another election
Jan 11 12:24:50 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: nod
Jan 11 12:25:06 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: that doesn't me we can't change it
Jan 11 12:25:09 Kugelfang	mean
Jan 11 12:25:18 kingtaco|work	Kugelfang, no doubt
Jan 11 12:25:24 kloeri	discussing on -dev or -core is a good idea imo
Jan 11 12:25:29 kingtaco|work	I think another election is silly
Jan 11 12:25:29 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|work: yeah... but it might be a good idea to get a finger on the current pulse of Gentoo and decide...
Jan 11 12:25:29 kingtaco|work	ok
Jan 11 12:25:31 robbat2	recalling the original ballot, taking the next person down has issues when there are ties
Jan 11 12:25:32 Kugelfang	robbat2: i return the mic to you
Jan 11 12:25:35 kingtaco|work	I'll spearhead that
Jan 11 12:25:41 robbat2	ok, my turn for items now
Jan 11 12:25:42 kingtaco|work	delayed until next month
Jan 11 12:26:08 robbat2	1. the bugzilla migration went very well as everybody can see, there's a few minor bits to pick up, but they will be done over the next week or so
Jan 11 12:26:18 Kugelfang	yeah, very nice work!
Jan 11 12:26:29 Kugelfang	thanks to all people involved :-)
Jan 11 12:26:33 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah... can we give kingtaco|laptop/robbat2/everyone else a big woop! woop!
Jan 11 12:26:35 kloeri	new bugzilla++
Jan 11 12:26:43 robbat2	2. there's work on a new CVS server after the storm problems at OSU previously, no actual timeline yet
Jan 11 12:26:45 wolf31o2|mobile	excellent job, guys
Jan 11 12:26:48 Uber	yeah, maybe jakub will be happy for once - I know I am happy with bugs now :)
Jan 11 12:26:53 Kugelfang	Big Whoop?
Jan 11 12:27:02 robbat2	thanks all :-)
Jan 11 12:27:02 wolf31o2|mobile	Kugelfang: praise
Jan 11 12:27:15 robbat2	3. the SPF bug....
Jan 11 12:27:17 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: pun in regard to monkey island!
Jan 11 12:27:28 Kugelfang	robbat2: right
Jan 11 12:27:32 *	Kugelfang looks at kloeri :-P
Jan 11 12:27:48 wolf31o2|mobile	heh... that was one I was going to bring up... status on SPF/Reply-to docs...
Jan 11 12:28:23 robbat2	SPF and reply-to are seperate items
Jan 11 12:28:34 wolf31o2|mobile	yes
Jan 11 12:28:39 wolf31o2|mobile	I meant there's two items
Jan 11 12:28:42 wolf31o2|mobile	the status on each
Jan 11 12:28:47 kloeri	I still have some nearly finished docs sitting on my laptop but have been more busy looking for a new job and taking care flameeyes and the sudden loss of our only apache maintainer
Jan 11 12:29:03 kloeri	I'll finish my doc after the meeting
Jan 11 12:29:09 Kugelfang	kloeri: cool
Jan 11 12:29:14 robbat2	kloeri, could you attach the drafts even to that bug?
Jan 11 12:29:24 wolf31o2|mobile	kloeri: you've got one week or we take away your swipe card for the soft-serve ice cream machine
Jan 11 12:29:28 robbat2	if you don't get a chance to finish them that is
Jan 11 12:29:31 kingtaco|pda	apache?
Jan 11 12:29:32 kloeri	sure
Jan 11 12:29:43 Kugelfang	kloeri: i promise to look over it from viewpoint of the user I am :-D
Jan 11 12:29:46 kloeri	yes, vericgar retired about a week ago
Jan 11 12:29:53 kingtaco|pda	ah
Jan 11 12:30:00 kloeri	leaving me (at that point) as the only remaining apache team member
Jan 11 12:30:29 robbat2	i didn't see any retire notice in the GWN or on the lists?
Jan 11 12:30:34 kloeri	fortunately chtekk and phreak both stepped up quickly to help me and we're squashing bugs at a very nice rate
Jan 11 12:30:39 kingtaco|pda	why cant gdp do it
Jan 11 12:30:56 kloeri	no, he just announced it in #-apache and I haven't sent it to GWN yet
Jan 11 12:31:41 kloeri	people announce retirement in all kinds of crazy ways - random irc channels, /msg'ing me etc.
Jan 11 12:31:42 robbat2	ok, just attach them to the bug when you're ready with them
Jan 11 12:31:52 kloeri	will do
Jan 11 12:31:54 robbat2	i have one more item on my list
Jan 11 12:32:02 robbat2	4. Agenda management
Jan 11 12:32:25 robbat2	could everybody just try and do a braindump on the council ML a day or two ahead of the meeting?
Jan 11 12:32:41 kingtaco|work	it'd be nice
Jan 11 12:32:47 Kugelfang	yes, sorry
Jan 11 12:32:47 robbat2	nothing fancy, just for own notes
Jan 11 12:32:52 Kugelfang	didn't think about it
Jan 11 12:33:13 kloeri	agreed, we need to do that
Jan 11 12:33:19 robbat2	if you think it's a bigger issue, bring it up earlier on -core/-dev, but for simple stuff like today, just braindump to -council
Jan 11 12:33:49 Kugelfang	somebody volunteering to prod me to it the mondays before we have meeting? :-P
Jan 11 12:34:02 robbat2	ok, i'll try to send out reminders ;-)
Jan 11 12:34:18 *	Kugelfang has electrocution prdo-sticks to give away
Jan 11 12:34:23 Kugelfang	prod-sticks
Jan 11 12:34:25 robbat2	SpanKY, last call before we mark you as a slacker
Jan 11 12:34:31 robbat2	vapier ping too
Jan 11 12:34:45 Kugelfang	3
Jan 11 12:34:46 Kugelfang	2
Jan 11 12:34:47 Kugelfang	1
Jan 11 12:34:50 Kugelfang	-out-
Jan 11 12:35:18 robbat2	Uber: is there anything you wanted to bring up on behalf of Flameeyes?
Jan 11 12:35:42 Uber	robbat2: nope. I was kinda ropped into this at the last minute
Jan 11 12:36:10 kloeri	thanks for stepping up at such short notice
Jan 11 12:36:25 Uber	np
Jan 11 12:36:25 robbat2	yeah, many thanks for being able to drop in
Jan 11 12:36:32 Kugelfang	Uber: nah, you got time for Diego, but when you're going to met me you go for honeymoon instead!
Jan 11 12:36:38 Kugelfang	Uber: you're a friend! *rant*
Jan 11 12:36:46 Kugelfang	meet
Jan 11 12:36:46 robbat2	vapier, i'm not giving your alter-ego a second chance
Jan 11 12:36:51 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:36:52 robbat2	wolf31o2, your turn
Jan 11 12:36:55 Uber	heh
Jan 11 12:36:56 robbat2	you mentioned Reply-To earlier?
Jan 11 12:37:05 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah... what's the status on that doc?
Jan 11 12:37:15 robbat2	absolutely nothing according to that bug
Jan 11 12:37:21 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:37:27 robbat2	bug 154595
Jan 11 12:37:37 robbat2	hmm, no jeeves in here
Jan 11 12:37:42 wolf31o2|mobile	should I just write one up and guidexml it? there's not much to it
Jan 11 12:38:02 robbat2	i wanted to raise question with it
Jan 11 12:38:08 wolf31o2|mobile	ok
Jan 11 12:38:08 robbat2	why don't we make more use of Mail-Followup-To?
Jan 11 12:38:18 wolf31o2|mobile	not a clue
Jan 11 12:38:27 kingtaco|work	I think it was all covered
Jan 11 12:38:41 kingtaco|work	one can use procmail to munge the headers however one likes
Jan 11 12:38:42 *	jeeves (n=jeeves@gentoo/developer/jeeves) has joined #gentoo-council
Jan 11 12:38:46 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to jeeves
Jan 11 12:38:49 *	wolf31o2|mobile gives voice to jeeves
Jan 11 12:39:05 Kugelfang	thanks for solar's quick reaction
Jan 11 12:39:13 robbat2	jeeves, bug 154595
Jan 11 12:39:15 jeeves	robbat2: https://bugs.gentoo.org/154595 nor, P2, All, kingtaco@gentoo.org->kloeri@gentoo.org, NEW, pending, Document how to change reply-to headers on gentoo lists
Jan 11 12:39:41 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah... I munge out the reply-to if it matches the "to:"
Jan 11 12:40:11 wolf31o2|mobile	so I can "reply to sender" and "reply to list" without having to manually type addresses or remove junk
Jan 11 12:40:51 wolf31o2|mobile	anyway... if nobody has any objections, I'll draft something up and post it to the bug for discussion
Jan 11 12:40:56 wolf31o2|mobile	sound good?
Jan 11 12:40:58 robbat2	sure
Jan 11 12:41:08 kloeri	fine
Jan 11 12:41:26 wolf31o2|mobile	ok...
Jan 11 12:41:35 robbat2	wolf31o2, any more items?
Jan 11 12:41:41 wolf31o2|mobile	so now my other idea/proposal/whatever...
Jan 11 12:42:03 Kugelfang	wolf31o2|mobile: ice cream machine for the council lounge?
Jan 11 12:42:11 wolf31o2|mobile	I was thinking of us starting some projects of our own... that are "council run" for specific tasks... I'll give you a (completely fictional) example
Jan 11 12:42:13 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:43:52 wolf31o2|mobile	let's say we wanted to create a tool, let's, for the sake of argument, say it is a GUI portage front-end... so, the Council would start the project, and we would "recruit" via the GWN, etc... the people whom we recruit could be devs or not... doesn't matter... they get access to some repo specifically for the project... they work for us, which means they aren't necessarily Gentoo developers... (though they could be... that po
Jan 11 12:43:52 wolf31o2|mobile	int isn't that important)
Jan 11 12:44:32 kingtaco|work	how does this differ from what we currently do for things like the installer
Jan 11 12:44:42 kingtaco|work	and why us as opposed to some other group
Jan 11 12:44:42 wolf31o2|mobile	anyway... we recruit... we get people... they start writing code... basically, we start managing some new code that is for Gentoo, rather than just packaging up other people's stuff... I'd imagine it would all pretty much be Gentoo-specific, for the most part
Jan 11 12:44:45 robbat2	and anybody else starting a project for that matter
Jan 11 12:44:55 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|laptop: it really isn't different than the installer...
Jan 11 12:45:06 wolf31o2|mobile	and why us? because I don't see anyone else doing it... and we're the elected leaders
Jan 11 12:45:29 wolf31o2|mobile	I mean, we have installer/scire... which are great examples of this
Jan 11 12:45:31 kingtaco|work	ok, so we take the initiative, not attempting to exclude others from doing the same
Jan 11 12:45:36 wolf31o2|mobile	correct
Jan 11 12:45:38 kingtaco|work	ok
Jan 11 12:45:46 wolf31o2|mobile	if someone wants to create a project, they're more than welcome to
Jan 11 12:45:51 robbat2	the only problem I see with that, is people wanting more direction from council on where each project should go
Jan 11 12:46:07 wolf31o2|mobile	the idea here being is we can identify places where we need improvement
Jan 11 12:46:20 wolf31o2|mobile	well... that's what we would do... steer the project(s) that we create
Jan 11 12:46:46 wolf31o2|mobile	like, we would come up with the project, and idea of what we want it to do, etc and try to keep the recruits on task
Jan 11 12:47:20 Uber	so basically the council is an ideas think tank?
Jan 11 12:47:33 wolf31o2|mobile	yes... and we can always take ideas from other people
Jan 11 12:47:45 wolf31o2|mobile	like... let's say you had a great idea, but didn't have time to lead the project
Jan 11 12:47:50 kingtaco|pda	more of formalizing what we already do
Jan 11 12:48:02 wolf31o2|mobile	we could do it as a team, rather than letting the great idea die on the vine
Jan 11 12:48:05 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah
Jan 11 12:49:07 wolf31o2|mobile	now, antarus brings up a point... he says "in my experience you can't direct a project unless you are actively contributing, so the project members are free to ignore your suggestions/direction"
Jan 11 12:49:09 robbat2	i do certainly find the concept interesting, however I wonder how this would impact our time availability as it stands
Jan 11 12:49:44 wolf31o2|mobile	well... there's a solution to that... we "fire" them... I know it sounds a bit rash... but that's the reason why we don't require people be devs... they're "contractors" so to speak... there to do a job (at their own pace, of coure)
Jan 11 12:50:14 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: no clue... but I figure we could try it out... get some ideas for a project that might not be too difficult from the community and try it
Jan 11 12:50:16 kloeri	time availability would be one of my concerns but I like the idea of more actively steering projects (or helping to steer projects where needed)
Jan 11 12:50:36 robbat2	so the directions are more of requirements in the project planning scope of things, more formal software development process
Jan 11 12:51:11 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: correct
Jan 11 12:51:13 kloeri	I'm sometimes doing the same thing with bugday where I hire (more or less) random users to help with a specific project
Jan 11 12:51:38 kloeri	works fairly well for bugday but that's very small projects though
Jan 11 12:51:55 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: we're recruiting for a task... not a general developer "position"
Jan 11 12:51:56 robbat2	wolf31o2|mobile, I do have one direct question. how do you ensure these projects don't stagnate?
Jan 11 12:52:10 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah... as I said... we'd want to find something smaller to see if it is even feasible
Jan 11 12:52:14 wolf31o2|mobile	might be we simply can't manage it
Jan 11 12:52:16 robbat2	and how to handle long term maintence too
Jan 11 12:52:48 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: well... as the "management" for it, we try to find new blood if things seem to be stagnating... there's *loads* of people who want to help Gentoo, but don't know how
Jan 11 12:53:04 robbat2	i'd like to point out that there is a limited precedent for such an idea
Jan 11 12:53:32 robbat2	back in the day of drobbins, he and releng identified some specific objectives that needed completion
Jan 11 12:53:41 robbat2	and sought people to complete them
Jan 11 12:53:48 robbat2	i wrote the genflags package for one of those
Jan 11 12:54:10 robbat2	code mostly useless now, but it had well defined requirements
Jan 11 12:54:15 wolf31o2|mobile	heh
Jan 11 12:54:50 robbat2	1. must run from a minimal livecd (bash only). 2. take all input it can find about a system (cpuinfo etc). 3. spit out recommended CFLAGS/CHOST
Jan 11 12:55:09 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah... that's the exact kind of thing I mean
Jan 11 12:55:12 robbat2	that's simplifying it a bit, but the important thing is that there was a precedent
Jan 11 12:55:21 Kugelfang	i'm no opposed to that, so let's try it out once the first need arises
Jan 11 12:55:34 wolf31o2|mobile	well... I'm going to suggest we call for ideas on -dev
Jan 11 12:55:43 wolf31o2|mobile	see what comes up... and try to pick one we think we can attain
Jan 11 12:55:47 robbat2	note that they should be small ideas
Jan 11 12:55:50 Kugelfang	this fits very well in the category 'Gentoo Hosted Projects' :-)
Jan 11 12:55:51 robbat2	not grand projects
Jan 11 12:55:54 wolf31o2|mobile	yes
Jan 11 12:56:33 robbat2	wolf31o2|mobile, ok, it's your idea, so if you'd like to spearhead asking for ideas and bringing them back for the next meeting, i'm all game
Jan 11 12:56:39 robbat2	i don't think it needs a vote at all
Jan 11 12:56:41 wolf31o2|mobile	cool
Jan 11 12:56:49 wolf31o2|mobile	yeah... I just wanted feedback on it, really
Jan 11 12:57:09 kloeri	no, just go ahead
Jan 11 12:57:15 Kugelfang	jupp
Jan 11 12:57:32 Kugelfang	vapier: kind-of-last-call!
Jan 11 12:57:32 robbat2	any further issues from anybody, or shall we open the floor?
Jan 11 12:58:07 kloeri	no further issues from me
Jan 11 12:58:10 robbat2	going once
Jan 11 12:58:10 kingtaco|work	can the foundation afford to buy sealand?
Jan 11 12:58:11 Kugelfang	nope
Jan 11 12:58:14 kingtaco|work	:p
Jan 11 12:58:26 kingtaco|work	</joke>
Jan 11 12:58:27 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|work: not yet...
Jan 11 12:58:31 Kugelfang	kingtaco|work: to set up the council's lounge and ice-cream machine?
Jan 11 12:58:38 robbat2	bug the foundation for financials reports, there haven't been any in a long time
Jan 11 12:58:38 kingtaco|work	hehe
Jan 11 12:59:00 kingtaco|work	wolf31o2|mobile, can you have someone over there work on the financial reports?
Jan 11 12:59:00 robbat2	we should have made a fair mint from our SoC payouts
Jan 11 12:59:03 Kugelfang	who's going to mark vapier as a slacker?
Jan 11 12:59:08 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: check -nfp archives... we need to clean it up... but there's a fairly recent one there
Jan 11 12:59:12 kingtaco|work	I'd like to see them too
Jan 11 12:59:15 kingtaco|work	cool
Jan 11 12:59:25 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|work: I think there is someone working on it... I can check
Jan 11 12:59:31 kingtaco|work	kk
Jan 11 12:59:49 kingtaco|work	nothing from me
Jan 11 12:59:51 kingtaco|work	open it up
Jan 11 12:59:59 *	Kugelfang sets mode -m #gentoo-council
Jan 11 13:00:15 robbat2	wolf31o2|mobile, got a link for that email?
Jan 11 13:00:18 antarus	wolf31o2|mobile: I'm working on einspect, but I'd probably have to gather more reqs
Jan 11 13:00:23 robbat2	i don't see it in the public archives at a glance
Jan 11 13:00:24 *	Kugelfang goes to mark vapier :-/
Jan 11 13:00:35 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: not off the top of my head... let me check
Jan 11 13:00:38 wolf31o2|mobile	antarus: einspect?
Jan 11 13:00:40 robbat2	anybody want to volunteer for the summary?
Jan 11 13:00:40 Kugelfang	i hope it's all good with him
Jan 11 13:00:57 antarus	wolf31o2|mobile: basically einspect [--local,--profile,--repository] -p sys-apps/portage
Jan 11 13:01:11 antarus	gives you informatoin like "what about your local configuration affects sys-apps/portage
Jan 11 13:01:25 antarus	what about your profile affects sys-apps/portage...what about the repo affects sys-apps/portage..
Jan 11 13:01:36 antarus	Users often get confused because fex, something is in .mask and unmask
Jan 11 13:01:40 antarus	and this would list that
Jan 11 13:01:44 antarus	among other things ;P
Jan 11 13:02:24 kingtaco|work	robbat2, side note, what's the deal with the nagios warnings about mysql on bugs
Jan 11 13:02:57 wolf31o2|mobile	antarus: ahh... nice
Jan 11 13:02:57 robbat2	kingtaco|laptop, me working on dunlin after it lost sync, just need to do it properly (read get mylvmbackup into the tree) rather than a hack fix
Jan 11 13:03:10 kingtaco|work	ok
Jan 11 13:03:19 kingtaco|work	can we turn off notifications for it in the meantime?
Jan 11 13:03:49 robbat2	kingtaco|work, if you have access to nagios, please ACK both mysql notifications for dunlin yes
Jan 11 13:03:54 robbat2	leave the one for peafowl
Jan 11 13:04:09 wolf31o2|mobile	robbat2: financials start here: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01207.xml
Jan 11 13:04:34 *	Kugelfang gone, have a new recuirt
Jan 11 13:04:46 kingtaco|work	robbat2, I have access to the host I'm sure(not that I know which one) but I don't know how to ack it
Jan 11 13:05:01 kingtaco|work	I'll poke lance to train me
Jan 11 13:05:53 wolf31o2|mobile	kingtaco|laptop: hit it w/ a browser... find the offending host/service by selecting "Service Problems"... then select "Acknowledge this service problem"
Jan 11 13:10:59 kloeri	no further questions? guess the meeting is finished then
Jan 11 13:11:05 wolf31o2|mobile	yup
Jan 11 13:11:09 wolf31o2|mobile	adjourned
Jan 11 13:11:31 kingtaco|work	done
Jan 11 13:12:18 Uber	*gone
Jan 11 13:12:23 *	Uber (n=uberlord@rsm.demon.co.uk) has left #gentoo-council
Jan 11 13:12:26 robbat2	i'll post the log and summary shortly
Jan 11 13:12:37 wolf31o2|mobile	=]
Jan 11 13:12:48 robbat2	but somebody else gets to do it next time