Jun 14 13:02:47 *	kingtaco|work sets mode +m #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:02:55 kingtaco|work	lets get the party started
Jun 14 13:03:00 kingtaco|work	roll-call
Jun 14 13:03:11 kingtaco|work	agaffney for wolf31o2
Jun 14 13:03:12 *	agaffney is here for wolf31o2
Jun 14 13:03:20 kingtaco|work	Flameeyes for uberlord
Jun 14 13:03:26 *	Flameeyes here
Jun 14 13:03:32 kingtaco|work	I'm of course here
Jun 14 13:03:36 SpanKY	yep
Jun 14 13:03:40 robbat2	yo
Jun 14 13:03:42 kingtaco|work	Kugelfang, robbat2 ?
Jun 14 13:03:51 Flameeyes	robbat2 was here a moment ago
Jun 14 13:04:03 robbat2	am I chopped liver?
Jun 14 13:04:07 kingtaco|work	yes!
Jun 14 13:04:15 kingtaco|work	ok, first round, jaervosz
Jun 14 13:04:23 robbat2	Kugelfang, where are ya?
Jun 14 13:04:40 kingtaco|work	robbat2, I haven't seen him around in weeks
Jun 14 13:05:32 kingtaco|work	last I heard he was working on his thesis
Jun 14 13:05:34 agaffney	he's 11 hours idle
Jun 14 13:05:38 agaffney	same here
Jun 14 13:05:43 agaffney	no idea what that's done with
Jun 14 13:05:49 kingtaco|work	nor I
Jun 14 13:05:49 agaffney	s/what/when/
Jun 14 13:05:53 kingtaco|work	so we'll continue
Jun 14 13:06:03 kingtaco|work	anyone have questions for jaervosz before we vote?
Jun 14 13:06:22 robbat2	on him becoming council - no
Jun 14 13:06:28 robbat2	no questions I mean
Jun 14 13:06:31 agaffney	heh
Jun 14 13:06:31 Flameeyes	erm vote on what?
Jun 14 13:06:36 *	Flameeyes needs to be filled in a bit
Jun 14 13:06:40 kingtaco|work	both wolf and uber have indicated that they approve
Jun 14 13:06:48 kingtaco|work	jaervosz is to fill kloeris spot
Jun 14 13:06:54 Flameeyes	no questions
Jun 14 13:06:55 SpanKY	and myself
Jun 14 13:06:59 kingtaco|work	yes
Jun 14 13:07:05 kingtaco|work	so, any nos?
Jun 14 13:07:29 *	Cardoe (n=cardoe@gentoo/developer/Cardoe) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:07:33 kingtaco|work	1
Jun 14 13:07:34 kingtaco|work	2
Jun 14 13:07:36 kingtaco|work	3
Jun 14 13:07:38 *	Jokey (n=jokey_mo@gentoo/developer/jokey) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:07:45 kingtaco|work	welcome to the club jaervosz
Jun 14 13:07:53 jaervosz	thanks :)
Jun 14 13:08:06 agaffney	you say that now... :P
Jun 14 13:08:08 kingtaco|work	the only agenda item I'm aware of is proctors
Jun 14 13:08:12 *	genone_ (n=genone@gentoo/developer/genone) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:08:19 kingtaco|work	anyone else have anything?
Jun 14 13:08:53 SpanKY	status of pms repo
Jun 14 13:08:58 kingtaco|work	k
Jun 14 13:09:03 kingtaco|work	anything else?
Jun 14 13:09:42 robbat2	nope
Jun 14 13:09:51 kingtaco|work	ok, lets do pms first
Jun 14 13:10:05 kingtaco|work	SpanKY, you got the floor
Jun 14 13:10:23 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to spb
Jun 14 13:10:35 SpanKY	robbat2 has the status
Jun 14 13:11:26 robbat2	the git repo is alive and up to r164 of their SVN - which is the last commit that seems to be present, which is concerning as it was 2 months ago
Jun 14 13:11:37 robbat2	unless they moved the SVN again
Jun 14 13:11:49 SpanKY	so it's ready for use on our side
Jun 14 13:11:59 kingtaco|work	latest svn that I've heard of was repogirl.net
Jun 14 13:12:03 robbat2	ya
Jun 14 13:12:20 kingtaco|work	ok
Jun 14 13:12:24 kingtaco|work	what's the next step?
Jun 14 13:12:25 SpanKY	spb: your turn
Jun 14 13:12:37 robbat2	on the side of accessing it, it's dev-only at the moment, and there's related git stuff going on with me and infra as there's other demand for non-dev users to write to git repos
Jun 14 13:13:31 SpanKY	so it's not done yet on infra's side
Jun 14 13:13:46 robbat2	devs can access it, but not non-dev
Jun 14 13:13:57 SpanKY	non-dev's should have anon access
Jun 14 13:14:04 *	peper (n=peper@gentoo/developer/paludis.lackey.peper) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:14:04 robbat2	i meant for write
Jun 14 13:14:14 kingtaco|work	I think they demanded commit writes for that person
Jun 14 13:14:21 SpanKY	the point of using git is so that there is no need
Jun 14 13:14:26 SpanKY	it'd be pushing to spb
Jun 14 13:14:47 SpanKY	if the repo has non-dev access, then it might as well be svn shouldnt it
Jun 14 13:15:08 kingtaco|work	except we simply won't give non-dev svn write access
Jun 14 13:15:13 kingtaco|work	at svn.gentoo.org
Jun 14 13:15:20 kingtaco|work	could do it on overlays or something
Jun 14 13:15:22 SpanKY	but you'd give non-dev access to git
Jun 14 13:15:43 kingtaco|work	it's more a logistical problem than anything
Jun 14 13:15:45 SpanKY	i'm asking, i dont really know what the infra policy is now
Jun 14 13:15:52 kingtaco|work	our ACLs arn't setup for that
Jun 14 13:16:06 kingtaco|work	I'm assuming robbat2 has solved the problem with git
Jun 14 13:16:21 robbat2	the other non-dev git-write work to git were for overlays already
Jun 14 13:16:57 robbat2	if there's one thing that's lacking, it's me writing a doc on how folks can access it
Jun 14 13:16:59 kingtaco|work	robbat2, so from an infra POV are we ready or not?
Jun 14 13:17:14 robbat2	it works yes, but I need to show folk how
Jun 14 13:17:24 kingtaco|work	all that's left is docs?
Jun 14 13:17:33 robbat2	for dev-only-write and world-read yes
Jun 14 13:17:47 SpanKY	then that's the status
Jun 14 13:18:04 kingtaco|work	ok, docs can be written this month?
Jun 14 13:18:14 robbat2	if nothing else blows up, ya
Jun 14 13:18:17 kingtaco|work	k
Jun 14 13:18:23 robbat2	(work's been a pita the last while)
Jun 14 13:18:26 kingtaco|work	table for next month then?
Jun 14 13:18:33 kingtaco|work	get a doc dev to do it for you
Jun 14 13:18:43 kingtaco|work	that's what they're here for
Jun 14 13:18:46 *	arkanoid (n=arkanoid@8-255-173-213.static.dsl.webpartner.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:18:47 robbat2	and spb to contact me in 2 weeks or so for a walk-thru of using it
Jun 14 13:19:12 *	windzor (n=windzor@82.143.229.82) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:19:17 Flameeyes	robbat2, if you have any raw notes to be translated in something humanly readable, feel free to mail this way
Jun 14 13:19:24 kingtaco|work	k, anything else on this topic?  anyone oppose to moving to next month?
Jun 14 13:19:30 Flameeyes	I don't have much to do lately, and I know my way around guidexml
Jun 14 13:19:35 robbat2	ok
Jun 14 13:20:05 kingtaco|work	aight, next topic
Jun 14 13:20:13 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from spb
Jun 14 13:20:18 kingtaco|work	proctors
Jun 14 13:20:34 kingtaco|work	whomever is here for the proctors, please PM me so I can voice you
Jun 14 13:20:53 kingtaco|work	wolf had called to disban them
Jun 14 13:21:18 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to musikc marienz
Jun 14 13:21:34 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to NeddySeagoon
Jun 14 13:21:41 kingtaco|work	aight then
Jun 14 13:22:33 kingtaco|work	I feel that the proctors haven't done what we initially intended
Jun 14 13:22:45 robbat2	is the email that musikc to council sent 3 hours before the council meeting on for discussion at the moment?
Jun 14 13:23:03 kingtaco|work	we can, but I must admit to not reading most of it
Jun 14 13:23:05 *	hlieberman (n=hlieberm@gentoo/developer/hlieberman) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:23:15 jaervosz	I haven't seen it either
Jun 14 13:23:22 kingtaco|work	I think I have a solution to the flamewars on -dev
Jun 14 13:23:32 kingtaco|work	that makes the proctors less needed
Jun 14 13:23:35 *	Flameeyes can't see it either
Jun 14 13:23:43 robbat2	and I think it's timing is such that our proxied council members haven't read it either
Jun 14 13:23:47 kingtaco|work	robbat2, can you forward that to the 2 people please
Jun 14 13:24:03 kingtaco|work	here is my idea:
Jun 14 13:24:23 kingtaco|work	infra makes a gentoo-project list, which would be a "copy'
Jun 14 13:24:27 kingtaco|work	infra makes a gentoo-project list, which would be a "copy" of -dev
Jun 14 13:25:00 kingtaco|work	then we make -dev moderated for non gentoo posters.  all the flamewars and bitching I've seen for quite a while have involved at least one non-dev at the begining
Jun 14 13:25:25 kingtaco|work	I think if we can stop them from starting then we have a much less chance of a full flamewar
Jun 14 13:25:27 kingtaco|work	thoughts?>
Jun 14 13:25:41 NeddySeagoon	Who will do the moderation ?
Jun 14 13:25:44 kingtaco|work	this would remove the main need for proctors
Jun 14 13:25:45 robbat2	who moderates, and under what policies?
Jun 14 13:25:47 kingtaco|work	good question
Jun 14 13:25:58 *	genone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 14 13:26:02 Flameeyes	yep who moderates (and how) is the main problem to solve here
Jun 14 13:26:04 agaffney	my questions exactly
Jun 14 13:26:17 kingtaco|work	I think we've made enough policies, I'd make it so any dev could moderate if they want, but hild them responsible for what they pass through
Jun 14 13:26:22 Flameeyes	[going on the pessimistic rule, whoever will be to moderate will be said to apply censorship, and flames will restart]
Jun 14 13:26:24 kingtaco|work	and no wussy 24 hour bans
Jun 14 13:26:38 kingtaco|work	if someone fucks up, make it a month ban or something
Jun 14 13:26:59 agaffney	yeah, the 24 hour bans were somewhat ineffective
Jun 14 13:27:04 robbat2	i think musikc's email is definetly relevant here
Jun 14 13:27:13 agaffney	because chances are the flame will still be going then, and they can just start right back in
Jun 14 13:27:17 Flameeyes	maybe something changed since I left, but weren't some people totally against banning at any level?
Jun 14 13:27:23 musikc	devrel would like the opportunity to help with the proctor project
Jun 14 13:27:30 marienz	(interrupting: I think the council really needs to decide what the goal of the -dev list *is*, and then decide how and by who the list is kept used only for that goal)
Jun 14 13:27:44 kingtaco|work	Flameeyes, some people didn't like it, yes, but things are continually out of hand
Jun 14 13:27:53 NeddySeagoon	Makr -dev moderated for everyone. In a short time, the flames would die out. It would need fair sized team for 24/7 coverage
Jun 14 13:28:14 kingtaco|work	marienz, the goal is simply development related topic
Jun 14 13:28:16 kingtaco|work	+s
Jun 14 13:28:22 Flameeyes	kingtaco|work, so am I fine to suppose that almost nothing changed in the background since I left?
Jun 14 13:28:24 NeddySeagoon	agaffney, the 24 hour bans were never really applied
Jun 14 13:28:24 marienz	you still need to decide on moderators for that. I fear that if any dev can let posts through they'll restart again fairly quickly.
Jun 14 13:28:33 agaffney	NeddySeagoon: that was my thought, but it's not very practical
Jun 14 13:28:43 agaffney	NeddySeagoon: I thought that 2 people were banned in the last big thread
Jun 14 13:28:46 robbat2	could I ask for a slight modification on KingTaco's original?
Jun 14 13:28:50 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to jmbsvicetto blackace hlieberman
Jun 14 13:28:54 kingtaco|work	robbat2, sure
Jun 14 13:28:59 robbat2	rather than banning, those that show poor judgement can also be moderated
Jun 14 13:29:00 kingtaco|work	my idea is raw
Jun 14 13:29:01 NeddySeagoon	agaffney, they were restored at wolfs insistance
Jun 14 13:29:03 agaffney	ah
Jun 14 13:29:05 *	Flameeyes reading the forward, give me a minute or two
Jun 14 13:29:06 robbat2	rather than directly blocked
Jun 14 13:29:18 kingtaco|work	robbat2, that works for me, assuming it's easy from the infra side
Jun 14 13:29:21 agaffney	robbat2: did you forward it to me? I haven't gotten it yet
Jun 14 13:29:22 robbat2	yup
Jun 14 13:29:27 *	cla (i=claudius@gentoo/developer/cla) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:29:28 marienz	and how do you decide "who shows poor judgment"?
Jun 14 13:29:43 musikc	who decides 'who shows poor judgment'?
Jun 14 13:29:52 kingtaco|work	the council does I suppose
Jun 14 13:29:54 hlieberman	I've got an idea, if you'd like to hear it.
Jun 14 13:29:54 marienz	it sounds to me like you'll still need a group of people (devrel? proctors? council?) who decide who crosses the line here, and that'll likely lead to the same "censorship" claims we're seeing now.
Jun 14 13:30:02 robbat2	musikc, i'm saying moderation as one of the things in your proctors actions email
Jun 14 13:30:07 blackace	so if everyone can let posts through, what's to stop someone from letting their own post through, and then who decides to ban them?  it seems to me, you have to trust that to someone, be it proctors or devrel or whatever
Jun 14 13:30:08 NeddySeagoon	robbat2, has that been implemented now ?  last time it was needed there was only bans
Jun 14 13:30:09 kingtaco|work	marienz, that can't be helped
Jun 14 13:30:13 hlieberman	That's a layer above all of these concerns - a higher level.
Jun 14 13:30:16 jmbsvicetto	kingtaco|work: I would just like to remember those listening to this proposal, that at this moment, the moderation as robbat2 is suggesting isn't still possible (at least it wasn't last Friday)
Jun 14 13:30:31 kingtaco|work	but frankly, participating in gentoo is a privilage, not a right
Jun 14 13:30:43 robbat2	NeddySeagoon, it's been available always, from the dropdown in the access.cgi, but the problem is that we don't have any moderators defined
Jun 14 13:30:44 Flameeyes	I agree with marienz on this
Jun 14 13:30:48 marienz	kingtaco|work: agreed, but I thought it was obvious the same thing would happen to proctors, and that didn't work out too well. Don't want a rerun of that the first time this new approach leads to an unpopular decision.
Jun 14 13:30:54 *	impulze (i=impulze@2001:6f8:10ae:0:217:31ff:fe81:8c8) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:31:13 kingtaco|work	first off, council, is this something we want to persue?
Jun 14 13:31:16 hlieberman	In fact, it's a solution that is working on a network larger than gentoo.
Jun 14 13:31:17 Flameeyes	whoever will be the moderators they _will_ be told to be censors, and nothing will stop this from happening
Jun 14 13:31:34 marienz	no matter how you approach this, if there's any kind of moderation/blocking/whatever there's going to be a group making unpopular decisions, and you need to trust that group
Jun 14 13:31:34 jmbsvicetto	robbat2: sorry, but I hadn't understood that from our talks
Jun 14 13:31:37 robbat2	it isn't the consensus moderation, it's any-mod-is-god
Jun 14 13:31:42 kingtaco|work	Flameeyes, my proposal was that *any* dev could be a moderator
Jun 14 13:31:49 hlieberman	I think we're approaching this thing the entirely wrong way.
Jun 14 13:32:01 hlieberman	We're looking at dealing with the flames by moderation - which raises the 'temperature'.
Jun 14 13:32:03 kingtaco|work	that way if people want to claim playing favorites, they can get off their lazy asses and moderate themselves
Jun 14 13:32:12 hlieberman	I think we need to all take a long hard look at the Catalyst model that Freenode runs off of.
Jun 14 13:32:24 Flameeyes	kingtaco|work, as once a mail passes it's passed, I fail to see how this would help
Jun 14 13:32:32 marienz	Flameeyes: exactly
Jun 14 13:32:32 Flameeyes	it's not like the flames comes _only_ from users
Jun 14 13:32:40 blackace	first off...can I ask why the council thinks proctors won't work?  one instance where a council member acted inappropriately and started this discussion?
Jun 14 13:32:54 Flameeyes	if all the devs were able to decide NOT to let flames pass to the mailing list, they would never post on the mailing list when a flame thread starts
Jun 14 13:32:55 musikc	kingtaco|work: so youre saying that every dev could moderate the ML, either blocking or allowing what they saw fit?
Jun 14 13:32:59 kingtaco|work	blackace, the proctors have so far failed at their task
Jun 14 13:33:01 marienz	if anyone can let posts through it won't *work*. You'll need to stop some people from letting obviously inflammatory posts through if you go that route.
Jun 14 13:33:04 kingtaco|work	musikc, not blocking, allowing
Jun 14 13:33:10 blackace	kingtaco|work: how?
Jun 14 13:33:23 agaffney	blackace: in multiple instances, the proctors' actions have just served to further fuel the flames, usually turning them in another direction...against the proctors
Jun 14 13:33:24 kingtaco|work	blackace, by failing to stop the flamewars and fighting
Jun 14 13:33:48 *	marienz is not convinced this means the proctors should be *disbanded*
Jun 14 13:33:53 SpanKY	agaffney: which really is to be expected
Jun 14 13:33:56 kingtaco|work	we're not voting on that
Jun 14 13:34:00 SpanKY	you tell a jackass he's a jackass and he's going to flame you
Jun 14 13:34:02 marienz	they're not working *yet*, but I don't believe disbanding entirely will help either.
Jun 14 13:34:03 blackace	kingtaco|work: specific instances please, because if all you have is this last one, it doesn't count, we _stopped_ after wolf's post, when we really wanted to continue banning people in order to stop the flamewar
Jun 14 13:34:03 kingtaco|work	or ever talking about that this moment
Jun 14 13:34:07 hlieberman	How many of you have read this: http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml
Jun 14 13:34:10 Flameeyes	SpanKY hit the problem
Jun 14 13:34:21 marienz	we need to adjust a few things, mainly get people to complain to/about proctors on some other place than the -dev list
Jun 14 13:34:22 Flameeyes	whoever will try to apply moderation in any form _will_ get a flame back
Jun 14 13:34:26 kingtaco|work	anyway
Jun 14 13:34:27 NeddySeagoon	kingtaco|work, The proctors gave up on the last thread in the face of wolfs insistance as a council member
Jun 14 13:34:54 kingtaco|work	the fact that we're getting into an argument here is proof that it isn't a good deal
Jun 14 13:35:03 kingtaco|work	now, back to the task
Jun 14 13:35:09 hlieberman	Tell me when you're done with this train of discussion, and are ready to listen. :)
Jun 14 13:35:12 blackace	no, it isn't.
Jun 14 13:35:14 kingtaco|work	council, what do you think about the idea?
Jun 14 13:35:16 agaffney	SpanKY: yes, but usually it was everyone else that was flaming the person calling the original person a jackass
Jun 14 13:35:33 NeddySeagoon	Lets here hlieberman
Jun 14 13:35:41 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from NeddySeagoon
Jun 14 13:35:44 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from blackace
Jun 14 13:36:09 kingtaco|work	again, council, what do you think about the idea of moderating?
Jun 14 13:36:16 jaervosz	I think we should give the proctors some more time to show results
Jun 14 13:36:17 Flameeyes	as I said, I feel like it won't change much
Jun 14 13:36:20 kingtaco|work	apply robbat2s idea to mine
Jun 14 13:36:42 musikc	kingtaco|work: can you recap robbat2s idea?
Jun 14 13:36:57 agaffney	kingtaco|work: I think the idea of moderating non-devs has merit, however, it would likely work better if *everyone* was moderated, but it wouldn't be as practical
Jun 14 13:37:07 robbat2	my idea was including moderation of a specific user in musikc's list of proctor actions
Jun 14 13:37:09 Flameeyes	I agree with jaervosz, I'd be for giving them the chance; just allowing any dev to be the moderator would expect any dev to be able to moderate himself, which, if true, wouldn't have let us come to this point in the first place
Jun 14 13:37:14 kingtaco|work	robbat2 was my idea but instead of a long ban for someone passing in crap, they would become moderated themselves
Jun 14 13:37:29 *	RiverRat (n=me@gentoo/contributor/riverrat) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:37:45 jaervosz	if we should turn to moderation all devs should be able to moderate other devs but not themselves i guess
Jun 14 13:37:53 kingtaco|work	keep in mind right now it's a pita for infra to find out who passed in crap, so we're not likely to want to go easy
Jun 14 13:38:33 robbat2	jaervosz, that causes problems when two folk agree to mod each others flames
Jun 14 13:38:34 Flameeyes	just adding a "moderate single user" option to proctors' capabilities sounds a nice compromise between doing nothing and banning right away
Jun 14 13:38:49 kingtaco|work	Flameeyes, it's already there
Jun 14 13:38:53 kingtaco|work	they haven't used it
Jun 14 13:38:57 jaervosz	robbat2: aye, but at least we have two fools to discuss at the next council meeting :)
Jun 14 13:39:05 kingtaco|work	in fact, the ONLY time they've done something was the latest flamewar
Jun 14 13:39:08 Flameeyes	robbat2, there's no need for that, whatever the argument, you'll find at least five people agreeing, and as many disagreeing
Jun 14 13:39:23 *	avenj (n=avenj@gentoo/developer/avenj) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:39:26 Flameeyes	kingtaco|work, wasn't just said that the mailing list has no moderators? and thus nobody can actually take care of the moderation?
Jun 14 13:39:50 jmbsvicetto	kingtaco|work: just for the record, the proctors team wasn't aware of that ability
Jun 14 13:39:53 musikc	Acknowledging what kingtaco|work said, I think we can all agree that the proctor project would need guidance, is that option completely off the table?
Jun 14 13:39:54 kingtaco|work	not from what I understand
Jun 14 13:40:01 jaervosz	but as i originally said i think proctors should be given more time, i think it's far better to have a human "face" to ensure a nice working enviornment than moderation
Jun 14 13:40:05 robbat2	moderation is possible from a technical perspective, but was not used, because it was a single-mod-is-god level
Jun 14 13:40:11 kingtaco|work	ok, I'm not talking about the proctors
Jun 14 13:40:18 kingtaco|work	so knock it off
Jun 14 13:40:21 robbat2	not the consensus moderation from 2 meetings ago
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Jun 14 13:40:31 Flameeyes	kingtaco|work, I wasn't aware of moderation being an option for proctors either
Jun 14 13:40:45 kingtaco|work	Flameeyes, what did I just say?
Jun 14 13:40:54 Flameeyes	kingtaco|work, I was just finishing my phrase above :)
Jun 14 13:40:55 robbat2	jmbsvicetto, go and hit the access.cgi page, you'll see a 'moderate' option in the dropdown
Jun 14 13:41:11 kingtaco|work	anyway
Jun 14 13:41:30 kingtaco|work	does any council member have anything to add to my little proposal or any questions?
Jun 14 13:42:02 Flameeyes	would the headers show who allowed a mail in?
Jun 14 13:42:07 kingtaco|work	eventually
Jun 14 13:42:15 kingtaco|work	for the moment, infra has to dig through logs
Jun 14 13:42:21 kingtaco|work	which means a pissed off infra
Jun 14 13:42:32 Flameeyes	I would consider that a technical requirement
Jun 14 13:42:43 kingtaco|work	which means someone is getting their ass banned or moderated
Jun 14 13:42:59 Flameeyes	although a pissed off infra is more likely to act, if you get enough noise to make the dig up a big waste of time, you have anyway got your effect
Jun 14 13:43:13 hlieberman	I think we're looking too far down at the discussion. Down into the technical elements. I have a much more higher level idea that I think bears consideration.
Jun 14 13:43:18 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from hlieberman
Jun 14 13:43:22 kingtaco|work	I told you to be quiet
Jun 14 13:43:50 *	tove (n=tove@smtp.gentoo.org) has left #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:44:29 robbat2	hlieberman, to finish your catalyst stuff off, integrate it into the CoC, which is not the present subject of discussion.
Jun 14 13:44:59 kingtaco|work	ok
Jun 14 13:45:27 kingtaco|work	this being independent of proctors, does anyone want to continue that discussion before we vote on this?
Jun 14 13:46:55 kingtaco|work	I take that as a no
Jun 14 13:47:00 jaervosz	just to be sure I understand it correctly: -dev will be moderated and -project and unmoderated version?
Jun 14 13:47:05 kingtaco|work	yes
Jun 14 13:47:16 robbat2	moderated for non-developers
Jun 14 13:47:26 jaervosz	so you post to -project and it might be moderated?
Jun 14 13:47:30 kingtaco|work	no
Jun 14 13:47:38 kingtaco|work	-project becomes what -dev is now
Jun 14 13:47:56 robbat2	and -dev gets moderated for non-@gentoo.org
Jun 14 13:48:00 kingtaco|work	the hidden bonus of this is that core can almost go away
Jun 14 13:48:05 agaffney	will devs be "required" to subscribe to -project?
Jun 14 13:48:08 kingtaco|work	no
Jun 14 13:48:20 kingtaco|work	announcements will go to -dev like always
Jun 14 13:49:10 agaffney	how can this get rid of -core? we still want a list that's only readable by devs, right?
Jun 14 13:49:28 kingtaco|work	it doesn't get rid of it, it makes it (almost) unnecessary
Jun 14 13:49:48 robbat2	i believe kingtaco means that some discussions are going to core at the moment when people don't want the noise involved of a discussion on the present -dev
Jun 14 13:49:55 agaffney	ah
Jun 14 13:50:07 kingtaco|work	there is very very little traffic that has to be kept internal
Jun 14 13:50:14 kingtaco|work	and even then I believe people leak it out
Jun 14 13:50:41 agaffney	it does seem that way
Jun 14 13:50:42 SpanKY	s/I believe//
Jun 14 13:50:46 Flameeyes	that's for sure a-hem
Jun 14 13:50:54 agaffney	sad that we can't trace the leak
Jun 14 13:51:11 kingtaco|work	such is a closed mailing list
Jun 14 13:51:14 agaffney	but that's an entirely different discussion
Jun 14 13:51:20 Flameeyes	right
Jun 14 13:51:20 kingtaco|work	yes
Jun 14 13:51:59 kingtaco|work	so, all in favor of -dev becoming non-moderated for !gentoo.org and gentoo.org that have flamed/passed in flames?
Jun 14 13:52:21 kingtaco|work	or rather
Jun 14 13:52:21 agaffney	s/non-// right?
Jun 14 13:52:30 kingtaco|work	any other questions before the vote
Jun 14 13:52:33 robbat2	still, who are the moderators? proctors?
Jun 14 13:52:38 kingtaco|work	nopoe
Jun 14 13:52:45 kingtaco|work	any dev who isn't currently moderated
Jun 14 13:52:50 kingtaco|work	and chooses to be
Jun 14 13:53:16 robbat2	so to clarify
Jun 14 13:54:02 robbat2	moderators are seperate from proctors, and the proctors still exist here in that they can make flaming devs be moderated, but proctors are needed a LOT less
Jun 14 13:54:23 Flameeyes	robbat2, (hopefully)
Jun 14 13:54:51 kingtaco|work	I see the proctors as a seperate thing
Jun 14 13:54:55 jaervosz	and a lot of time is wasted moderating instead of developing
Jun 14 13:55:09 kingtaco|work	jaervosz, not really, most posts are from gentoo devs
Jun 14 13:55:18 kingtaco|work	not a lot of non-gentoo posters there anymore
Jun 14 13:55:22 *	avenj (n=avenj@gentoo/developer/avenj) has left #gentoo-council
Jun 14 13:55:29 Flameeyes	jaervosz, I doubt that whoever would moderate would be developing otherwise
Jun 14 13:56:11 jaervosz	ok, my point is that time spend moderating could perhaps be spend better elsewhere
Jun 14 13:56:12 kingtaco|work	this does reduce or possibly eliminate the need for proctors on this list
Jun 14 13:56:27 kingtaco|work	jaervosz, the options we have is either moderate or flame
Jun 14 13:56:29 Flameeyes	jaervosz, it's not far different from the flaming
Jun 14 13:56:45 kingtaco|work	the difference is that it only wastes 1 persons time
Jun 14 13:57:39 *	jaervosz has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Jun 14 13:57:41 Flameeyes	and one person's face if someone proactively lets flames begin
Jun 14 13:57:52 musikc	kingtaco|work: will devs moderate other devs on -dev, or only moderate users?
Jun 14 13:58:19 kingtaco|work	all non devs and those devs who have either flamed or allowed a flame in
Jun 14 13:58:34 kingtaco|work	default policy is to accept any dev
Jun 14 13:58:55 musikc	kingtaco|work: then wouldnt it make the -project ML an unnecessary redundancy?
Jun 14 13:59:00 kingtaco|work	nope
Jun 14 13:59:08 kingtaco|work	that's more of a anything goes place
Jun 14 13:59:17 kingtaco|work	-dev is for development related discussion **ONLY**
Jun 14 13:59:24 robbat2	folks should direct anything political to -project, just like debian's -project
Jun 14 13:59:37 kingtaco|work	and if we decide to keep the proctors I see them having a active role on that list
Jun 14 13:59:40 musikc	kingtaco|work: then -project will still incite flames, etc, and wouldnt THAT ML need some form of moderation?
Jun 14 13:59:50 kingtaco|work	musikc, yes
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 14 14:00:15 2007

Jun 14 14:00:15 kingtaco|work	the difference is that people don't have to be subscribed and they won't miss out on the important announcements that come on -dev
Jun 14 14:01:10 musikc	kingtaco|work: i think i follow you now, it would make -project a necessary evil essentially. acknowledging a place where such behaviour may exist, but not requiring an individual to read it or partake
Jun 14 14:01:20 agaffney	ok, so the -project thing isn't arbitrary...it's based on debian's list of the same name
Jun 14 14:01:37 agaffney	also explains the name :)
Jun 14 14:01:48 kingtaco|work	no, the bahavior isn't accepted, but since we know it's going to happen, we may as well move it to a place where people can ignore and not miss something important
Jun 14 14:02:09 kingtaco|work	-project is what was requested
Jun 14 14:02:15 kingtaco|work	don't really care what it's called
Jun 14 14:02:32 kingtaco|work	and the -project side is mainly kumbas idea
Jun 14 14:03:24 kingtaco|work	so anything else before we pt this to vote?
Jun 14 14:03:29 musikc	kingtaco|work: sorry, not saying the behaviour would be accepted on -project. of course that would bring us round to the discussion of future of "proctors"
Jun 14 14:03:41 kingtaco|work	which is next on the list
Jun 14 14:03:49 *	je_fro (n=unknown@gentoo/developer/je-fro) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:04:12 agaffney	after this vote, I'll still be around, but I'll be paying a lot less attention
Jun 14 14:04:24 robbat2	ok, so I think all the questions have been resolved here, i'll try summarize quickly
Jun 14 14:04:25 kingtaco|work	I have to fix dev.g.o soon
Jun 14 14:04:27 robbat2	and we can vote
Jun 14 14:04:30 kingtaco|work	so we need to hurry up
Jun 14 14:04:58 robbat2	1. -dev becomes moderated for non-@gentoo.org AND any @gentoo.org that wishes to be moderated or has flamed
Jun 14 14:05:10 robbat2	2. -project is created as an open list for the flames of which -dev presently sees
Jun 14 14:05:56 robbat2	3. moderators are a seperate and more open group than proctors. they are mainly devs and are expected to show good judgement (more on this in a bit, re hlieberman's)
Jun 14 14:06:20 robbat2	did I miss anything?
Jun 14 14:06:35 kingtaco|work	that's it in a nutshell
Jun 14 14:06:52 robbat2	anybody else think I missed anything? speak or PM me
Jun 14 14:06:58 robbat2	you have 60 seconds
Jun 14 14:07:16 *	jaervosz (n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:07:59 Flameeyes	jaervosz, you want a summary?
Jun 14 14:08:19 robbat2	ok, here are some Qs
Jun 14 14:08:23 Flameeyes	jaervosz, http://rafb.net/p/spFw0Q11.html
Jun 14 14:08:28 robbat2	<tomk> what about devs who have let a flamewar start?
Jun 14 14:08:44 robbat2	<mariez> how is "has flamed" decided?
Jun 14 14:08:45 kingtaco|work	robbat2, you take over chair please, I gotta take a piss
Jun 14 14:09:32 robbat2	<tomaw> Can the gentoo council declare, create and enforce a requirement all in one meeting?
Jun 14 14:09:58 agaffney	brb...bathroom break as well
Jun 14 14:10:04 *	dang (n=dang@gentoo/developer/pdpc.active.dang) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:10:23 robbat2	ok, that's all the really clear questions for now
Jun 14 14:11:41 robbat2	some initial answers from me on them
Jun 14 14:12:01 kingtaco|work	the answer to the last one is yes
Jun 14 14:12:02 robbat2	tomk, that's going to be a proctors/devrel thing, more on that in the next agenda item
Jun 14 14:12:58 kingtaco|work	as far as marienz Q, I say let the proctors decide that.  they have shown themselves to be a reactive group and not proactive, and the decision for a "flame" is certainly a reactive one
Jun 14 14:13:24 kingtaco|work	I honestly don't know if we could have a proactive group
Jun 14 14:13:40 *	igli (n=igli@unaffiliated/igli) has left #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:13:53 robbat2	tomaw, as jmbsvicetto points out to me, there has definetly been much discussion in the list already, but also that we're discussing a moving target here. evolution of requrements happens
Jun 14 14:14:00 agaffney	without precognition, it's pretty difficult
Jun 14 14:14:10 musikc	kingtaco|work: such proactive behaviour would likely incite more flames
Jun 14 14:14:21 kingtaco|work	maybe
Jun 14 14:14:27 kingtaco|work	it seems to have in the past
Jun 14 14:15:47 robbat2	are there any council members that think more public discussion is needed before such an action is undertaken?
Jun 14 14:16:06 robbat2	I personally think no, as it's an evolution of the present proctors stuff
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Jun 14 14:16:35 Flameeyes	I think it should be at least left as a proposal for the community to examine, maybe not for a month, but reschedule an extra meeting in, say, two weeks time
Jun 14 14:16:50 agaffney	kingtaco|work: hlieberman is asking if there will be an open floor before the vote
Jun 14 14:17:37 kingtaco|work	well, considering we've never done that before and I think the only reason he's interested is because it affected him, I'd say no.  but I gave my chair up to robbat2
Jun 14 14:18:04 robbat2	hlieberman, has already asked me that, because he wanted to present the Freenode Catalyst idea (http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml)
Jun 14 14:18:12 *	avenj (n=avenj@gentoo/developer/avenj) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:18:29 robbat2	i stated no, because we're going to visit it in the next agenda item
Jun 14 14:18:58 kingtaco|work	robbat2, I'm forced to point out I've a screen full of people wanting us to not vote on this today
Jun 14 14:19:10 kingtaco|work	wanting more discussion
Jun 14 14:19:37 robbat2	ok, for the moment then, lets send this to the list, for a meeting in 2 weeks time AND continue with the next agenda item
Jun 14 14:19:43 robbat2	since that's still relevant to the rest of the matter
Jun 14 14:19:47 kingtaco|work	ok
Jun 14 14:19:51 robbat2	could we still have a prelinary vote by council?
Jun 14 14:19:55 robbat2	non-binding
Jun 14 14:20:26 *	rangerpb (i=baude@gentoo/developer/rangerpb) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:20:27 kingtaco|work	sure
Jun 14 14:20:37 *	nightmorph (n=nightmor@gentoo/developer/nightmorph) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:20:40 robbat2	ok, for voting for the matter as I outlined in the 3 points above
Jun 14 14:20:42 robbat2	yes for me
Jun 14 14:21:03 kingtaco|work	yes
Jun 14 14:21:22 robbat2	agaffney, Flameeyes, Kugelfang, SpanKY, jaervosz
Jun 14 14:21:28 *	robbat2 gives channel operator status to jaervosz
Jun 14 14:21:30 Flameeyes	mostly yes here
Jun 14 14:21:47 agaffney	yes
Jun 14 14:22:13 kingtaco|work	SpanKY, Kugelfang jaervosz
Jun 14 14:22:31 jaervosz	atm i tend to say no, giving the proctors more time to show results
Jun 14 14:22:35 kingtaco|work	ok
Jun 14 14:23:37 robbat2	SpanKY, we're waiting
Jun 14 14:24:05 kingtaco|work	robbat2, we have 4 yeses and it's non binding, I think we can move on
Jun 14 14:24:11 robbat2	eh, it's non-binding anyway.
Jun 14 14:24:12 robbat2	moving on
Jun 14 14:24:15 kingtaco|work	we can record his vote later if he agrees
Jun 14 14:24:33 robbat2	next is proctors, and relevant is musikc's email
Jun 14 14:24:42 *	[equilibrium] (n=equilibr@gentoo/contributor/equilibrium) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:24:45 robbat2	to summarize for those non-council that didn't recieve it
Jun 14 14:24:55 robbat2	(and I do think a revised version should go out to all)
Jun 14 14:25:02 kingtaco|work	remember that wolf called for the project to be disbanded
Jun 14 14:25:32 robbat2	it discusses both the development and processes that should be involved in proctors
Jun 14 14:26:23 kingtaco|work	robbat2, you should probably voice all those proctors at the moment, most of them wanted to keep talking when I cut them off
Jun 14 14:26:39 robbat2	ok, will do in one sec
Jun 14 14:27:24 musikc	robbat2: if we can agree to continue proctors, we can sort out the specific details later
Jun 14 14:27:27 robbat2	the core of the processes email is laying out why proctors should take the course of action (including ignoring) that they do
Jun 14 14:28:03 *	robbat2 gives voice to hlieberman NeddySeagoon blackace
Jun 14 14:28:12 *	robbat2 gives voice to pilla
Jun 14 14:28:37 *	blackace would like to nominate marienz to speak for proctors
Jun 14 14:28:43 *	robbat2 gives voice to marienz
Jun 14 14:28:52 robbat2	anybody else for voice? i've got a few things to state first
Jun 14 14:28:59 *	marienz thinks that's a silly idea 'cause he's a slacker and only recently got involved with proctors at all, but will try
Jun 14 14:29:09 SpanKY	yeah
Jun 14 14:29:24 robbat2	ok, nobody else coming up yet. so to quickly cover the other thing
Jun 14 14:29:41 robbat2	hlieberman, brings up the Catalyst concept from FreeNode
Jun 14 14:29:47 kingtaco|work	SpanKY, yeah to that prelim vote?
Jun 14 14:29:55 SpanKY	yeah
Jun 14 14:30:00 kingtaco|work	k
Jun 14 14:30:15 robbat2	and I believe that all of the items in there should be applied to every developer. _all_ of us should hold ourselves to that level of behavior
Jun 14 14:30:32 hlieberman	robbat2, Tell me when you want me to speak.
Jun 14 14:31:00 musikc	robbat2: it sounds like you presume everyone else has read it. perhaps you could summarize it?
Jun 14 14:31:18 robbat2	i'll link again
Jun 14 14:31:24 robbat2	http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml
Jun 14 14:31:48 robbat2	it reads a lot like the second half of Christel's original CoC proposal (not the punishment half)
Jun 14 14:31:58 kingtaco|work	it's good in concept, I don't see how it applies to us
Jun 14 14:32:18 kingtaco|work	it's really just "be a decent person and lead by example"
Jun 14 14:32:25 hlieberman	If I may?
Jun 14 14:32:31 kingtaco|work	by all means
Jun 14 14:32:45 robbat2	hlieberman, go for it
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Jun 14 14:33:18 hlieberman	Thank you. So, the catalyst concept.
Jun 14 14:33:55 hlieberman	Now one very important thing to realize about this concept is that it is meant to diffuse the situation.
Jun 14 14:33:59 hlieberman	For example.
Jun 14 14:34:10 hlieberman	Someone starts ranting in #gentoo about how Gentoo sucks.
Jun 14 14:34:22 hlieberman	Well, setting a ban is the easiest thing to do.
Jun 14 14:34:30 hlieberman	Shuts them up. Done.
Jun 14 14:34:45 hlieberman	But whenever someone exercises their power over other people, it increases the temperature of the discussion.
Jun 14 14:35:27 hlieberman	The catalyst way would be to be calm, and to try and nudge them onto a productive track.
Jun 14 14:35:44 kingtaco|work	I'll point out that it's been tried by many people many times
Jun 14 14:35:49 hlieberman	Frequently (though there are exceptions), people who burn up and start flames are pissed about something.
Jun 14 14:35:51 robbat2	hlieberman, why shouldn't every developer be expected to act under the catalyst model?
Jun 14 14:35:53 kingtaco|work	I've only had a positive effect doing that once
Jun 14 14:36:00 hlieberman	In #gentoo with users, it's frequently because they broke something.
Jun 14 14:36:18 hlieberman	And if you figure out what it is, and guide them through the solution...
Jun 14 14:36:25 Flameeyes	I don't think this would apply for the in-fighting between devs
Jun 14 14:36:26 hlieberman	You just lowered the temperature in the channel.
Jun 14 14:36:45 hlieberman	Now, please, don't mistake this for saying no one should be banned ever. Nyah, censorship, nyah.
Jun 14 14:36:48 NeddySeagoon	hlieberman, proctors already try to do this in private
Jun 14 14:36:49 kingtaco|work	from experence, it's helped once out of the dozen times I've tried
Jun 14 14:36:55 hlieberman	I'm saying that it shouldn't be a first step.
Jun 14 14:37:17 hlieberman	Example from the mailing lists.
Jun 14 14:37:31 hlieberman	The bubble letter.
Jun 14 14:37:40 kingtaco|work	bubble?
Jun 14 14:37:45 musikc	robbat2 has a point, since the role of catalyst has no authority, its really parrellel to the CoC and an expectation of every dev
Jun 14 14:37:54 hlieberman	It was titled Living in a Bubble.
Jun 14 14:37:57 kingtaco|work	oh
Jun 14 14:37:58 Flameeyes	"Living in a bubble", beejay's mail which started one of the latest flames
Jun 14 14:37:58 kingtaco|work	right
Jun 14 14:38:01 kingtaco|work	yeah
Jun 14 14:38:02 hlieberman	A user complaining about the developer mailing list.
Jun 14 14:38:11 hlieberman	The first reactions to those were to flame right back.
Jun 14 14:38:44 hlieberman	It was a joke, bla, bla, bla.
Jun 14 14:38:47 hlieberman	Escalating, escalating.
Jun 14 14:39:03 hlieberman	People got (perhaps rightly) pissed off, and responded as such.
Jun 14 14:39:50 hlieberman	And once that cycle starts, it's hard to stop.
Jun 14 14:40:06 robbat2	that is exactly why every developer should act as a catalyst
Jun 14 14:40:19 robbat2	and not respond in kind
Jun 14 14:40:23 hlieberman	Exactly.
Jun 14 14:40:32 agaffney	am I needed for anything else?
Jun 14 14:40:40 hlieberman	Moderators aren't needed if developers don't help fan the flames. They should be there just in case, but..
Jun 14 14:40:41 agaffney	I'll be leaving work in <10 minutes
Jun 14 14:40:51 agaffney	and I won't be back near a computer until late tonight
Jun 14 14:40:57 hlieberman	The decision to ban, or to exercise authority should be used as a last resort.
Jun 14 14:41:12 blackace	How do you plan to get rid of developers who do not act as catalysts?
Jun 14 14:41:23 hlieberman	You don't need to.
Jun 14 14:41:28 hlieberman	There are three hundred something developers.
Jun 14 14:41:36 blackace	...
Jun 14 14:41:40 hlieberman	If half of them, or a quarter of them start acting responsibly.
Jun 14 14:41:47 hlieberman	And not fanning the flames.
Jun 14 14:41:52 blackace	So...magic then?
Jun 14 14:41:59 jaervosz	~99% do that already..
Jun 14 14:42:01 hlieberman	They will die out on their own.
Jun 14 14:42:22 hlieberman	I mean responsibly as in responsible catalysts.
Jun 14 14:42:26 kingtaco|work	hlieberman, the CoC mimics the same idea
Jun 14 14:42:30 hlieberman	It does.
Jun 14 14:42:34 musikc	hlieberman: this is all covered under the CoC, and has not been demonstrated effective as the only resource (that being refer to the CoC and be have)
Jun 14 14:42:43 *	jaervosz has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Jun 14 14:42:45 Flameeyes	hlieberman, as jaervosz said, most of the devs already do that, it's a so-called "vocal minority" that creates the flames, and I doubt that just telling people to be nice once again will help
Jun 14 14:42:46 jmbsvicetto	hlieberman: If you look at the mls stats, you'll notice that the majority of posts are from half a dozen devs and users.
Jun 14 14:42:47 hlieberman	But I think where the CoC fell down a bit was that we jumped to moderation too quickly.
Jun 14 14:42:53 kingtaco|work	some of us do it, more often than not we're ignored, we should all continue to di it, but I don't see where you're going with this?
Jun 14 14:43:25 robbat2	yes, more people should certaining have clamped down in the catalyst sense on the Bubble email
Jun 14 14:43:36 robbat2	they didn't, and it got out of control
Jun 14 14:43:44 hlieberman	robbat2 has the idea.
Jun 14 14:43:55 musikc	robbat2: hence the need for ... $insert some role$
Jun 14 14:44:02 hlieberman	No, no.
Jun 14 14:44:07 *	agaffney waves goodbye
Jun 14 14:44:09 hlieberman	The solution isn't adding more people with power.
Jun 14 14:44:22 robbat2	hlieberman, how do you get people to act as catalysts then?
Jun 14 14:44:31 blackace	agaffney: thanks, take care :)
Jun 14 14:44:45 musikc	hlieberman: and how to do get others to abide by something another dev acting as a catalyst says?
Jun 14 14:44:59 marienz	hlieberman: if half a dozen people decide to flame each other to a crisp in spite of dozens of catalysts telling them not to in private mail, the -dev ml *still* won't be a usable thing.
Jun 14 14:45:22 hlieberman	marienz, Agreed. And that's a circumstance where a restriction is necessary. When the catalyst system fails.
Jun 14 14:45:54 robbat2	which returns us to the past debate on, who decides at when a system has failed and something more severe is needed
Jun 14 14:45:54 hlieberman	But in many circumstances, the catalyst system will work before that's necessary.
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Jun 14 14:46:32 NeddySeagoon	hlieberman, the lag on a mailing list makes it very difficult to stop a flameware, the catalyst approach works for some other things
Jun 14 14:46:53 dmwaters	hlieberman: the catalyst system works for freenode because most of the staff is trained for that, doing it with 300 devs is much harder
Jun 14 14:46:54 hlieberman	Agreed - the lag makes it much more difficult.
Jun 14 14:46:58 marienz	oh, the catalyst thing is *very* important, and as others have pointed out the coc is in places very similar in spirit at least
Jun 14 14:47:01 kingtaco|work	guys, we're not getting anywhere
Jun 14 14:47:15 Flameeyes	as agaffney is already gone, it's getting late (and we're stuck at the same point as... 20 minutes ago?) I think I'll take the opportunity to go a bit AFK myself.. for what concerns disbanding the proctors, as jaervosz said before, I'd like to give them a bit more time
Jun 14 14:47:17 kingtaco|work	if there are no further items we need to vote on, I move to open the floor
Jun 14 14:47:36 hlieberman	dmwaters, I can imagine. Perhaps some people (christel) familiar with the system could write up a "How to" so to speak and put that on the list.
Jun 14 14:47:37 marienz	but even before we had the CoC, people were supposed to act as catalysts already, and we need a system in place for when they *don't*
Jun 14 14:47:47 marienz	this "people should act as catalysts" isn't new
Jun 14 14:47:48 musikc	kingtaco|work: what of the issue of the future of the proctors?
Jun 14 14:47:53 hlieberman	That's all I'm here to say. :)
Jun 14 14:47:55 robbat2	council: quick vote, who in favour of giving proctors more time?
Jun 14 14:47:56 *	jaervosz (n=jaervosz@gentoo/developer/jaervosz) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:47:59 musikc	hlieberman: they've done that, its called CoC
Jun 14 14:48:02 robbat2	vs. disbanding
Jun 14 14:48:10 robbat2	I say more time, flameyes does too
Jun 14 14:48:17 hlieberman	musikc, That's listing what you need - not how to do it.
Jun 14 14:48:28 kingtaco|work	I'd say more time only because we're changing the scope of what they are doing
Jun 14 14:49:16 marienz	I have some proctor-related thoughts but I should've brought them up on the list earlier, so I'll mention them once the floor is opened instead. Unless someone has questions now, of course :)
Jun 14 14:49:19 musikc	council: can we further the decision to include allowing devrel to assist in this new opportunity for proctors?
Jun 14 14:49:33 kingtaco|work	I can't reiterate enough that I'm unhappy with the current direction the proctors have taken
Jun 14 14:50:03 robbat2	ok, quick summary, then open floor
Jun 14 14:50:12 musikc	kingtaco|work: and devrel would like nothing more than the opportunity to assist
Jun 14 14:50:17 marienz	musikc: can't speak for the rest of proctors, but I'm all for more cooperation/integration there
Jun 14 14:50:23 robbat2	1. from the previous item, adding somebody to moderation needs to go into musikc's email
Jun 14 14:50:33 robbat2	2. catalyst stuff goes into CoC
Jun 14 14:50:52 robbat2	3. musikc: make your email public after editing more?
Jun 14 14:51:00 *	robbat2 gives channel operator status to jaervosz
Jun 14 14:51:19 robbat2	anything more before opening the floor?
Jun 14 14:51:20 musikc	robbat2: 3) give us time to hash it out further and we will, say one week?
Jun 14 14:51:28 robbat2	musikc, ok with me
Jun 14 14:51:46 jmbsvicetto	I would suggest taking that discussion to the #gentoo-proctors ml - that's one of the reasons it was created
Jun 14 14:51:47 NeddySeagoon	musikc, please do
Jun 14 14:51:55 *	hlieberman (n=hlieberm@gentoo/developer/hlieberman) has left #gentoo-council ("Leaving")
Jun 14 14:52:06 robbat2	ok, so opening the floor then
Jun 14 14:52:12 *	robbat2 sets mode -m #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:52:27 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from blackace
Jun 14 14:52:31 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from jmbsvicetto
Jun 14 14:52:34 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from marienz
Jun 14 14:52:36 *	[equilibrium] has quit (Client Quit)
Jun 14 14:52:38 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from musikc
Jun 14 14:52:42 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from NeddySeagoon
Jun 14 14:52:44 *	robbat2 removes voice from NeddySeagoon pilla
Jun 14 14:52:45 *	kingtaco|work removes voice from pilla
Jun 14 14:53:04 jmbsvicetto	kingtaco|work: Can you please elaborate what's wrong on the proctors direction and what would you like to see being done differently?
Jun 14 14:53:06 robbat2	bah, now hlieberman has left
Jun 14 14:53:32 jaervosz	robbat2: he's still around somewhere
Jun 14 14:53:35 *	You've invited hlieberman to #gentoo-council (zelazny.freenode.net)
Jun 14 14:54:01 kingtaco|work	jmbsvicetto, when I brought up the idea I envisioned a proactive group that would attempt to diffuse a potential flamewar before it became one
Jun 14 14:54:09 kingtaco|work	to date that hasn't been done
Jun 14 14:54:21 kingtaco|work	but I've come to realize that I had a unrealistic expectation
Jun 14 14:54:33 marienz	kingtaco|work: we've *tried* but it's rather hard, especially because of the time lag thing I mentioned.
Jun 14 14:54:42 *	hlieberman (n=hlieberm@gentoo/developer/hlieberman) has joined #gentoo-council
Jun 14 14:54:44 kingtaco|work	I don't believe any group can be proactive in this case
Jun 14 14:54:56 kingtaco|work	so now we work around my faulty assumption
Jun 14 14:55:12 marienz	not unless we apply massive amounts of moderation, which would encounter a lot of resistance from people claiming it's censorship.
Jun 14 14:55:25 jmbsvicetto	kingtaco|work: ki
Jun 14 14:55:37 robbat2	every developer should be proactive in apply Catalyst/CoC to their email before they hit send
Jun 14 14:55:49 robbat2	but that's a pipe dream too
Jun 14 14:55:55 marienz	anyway, I think one obvious thing we need to fix is that we need a different place than the -dev ml to direct complaints about proctor decisions.
Jun 14 14:55:58 jmbsvicetto	kingtaco|work: ok
Jun 14 14:56:10 robbat2	marienz, -project ;-)
Jun 14 14:56:16 NeddySeagoon	kingtaco|work, there are two cases.  When thisng develop slowly, there is time to send private emails and nip them. When things develop quickly, the mail lag prevents that
Jun 14 14:56:24 marienz	because every time we do something unpopular we morph the discussion into an anti-proctors one instead of really stopping it.
Jun 14 14:56:38 jmbsvicetto	marienz: We have -proctors, but I see little interest in using it
Jun 14 14:56:59 kingtaco|work	NeddySeagoon, the moderate idea that we discussed convers it
Jun 14 14:57:02 marienz	if we set up a separate list (could be -project, but I think it should actually be a publically-archived separate list) and *heavily* enforce all complaints have to go to that list, I think that'd help.
Jun 14 14:57:05 kingtaco|work	you no longer need to be proactive
Jun 14 14:57:11 kingtaco|work	at least not on -dev
Jun 14 14:57:48 marienz	I also think that if we keep proctors around council needs to decide what proctors should and shouldn't be able to do, and keep in mind that proctors will actually *use* whatever "powers" you give it :)
Jun 14 14:58:09 marienz	if you don't want us to give temporary ml bans, don't give us that ability, or make it very obvious under what circumstances the ability should be used
Jun 14 14:58:29 marienz	and if you decide we overuse that ability, complain to *us*, not straight to the -dev list
Jun 14 14:58:37 musikc	marienz: a lot of what you are discussing was addressed in the proposal devrel sent to council
Jun 14 14:58:56 marienz	musikc: just to council, right, or did I miss a mail?
Jun 14 14:58:57 musikc	and its been agreed that devrel and proctors can work on this together
Jun 14 14:59:06 jmbsvicetto	kingtaco|work: Another problem that I see getting more serious on the -dev ml is personal discussions escalating into "gang" confrontations - sorry for the strong word
Jun 14 14:59:06 kingtaco|work	marienz, wish I could agree, but we looked at the logs, the proctors have not used their "special powers"
Jun 14 14:59:17 marienz	so far I don't think we've been getting in each others way, but that'd be good :)
Jun 14 14:59:22 musikc	marienz: just council thus far, we need to hash out the details and THEN send it to everyone
Jun 14 14:59:36 blackace	musikc: so you can't really expect marienz to know about it
Jun 14 14:59:42 marienz	musikc: perhaps you could send it to the proctors alias before that (but I don't know what's in it, so perhaps that doesn't make sense)
Jun 14 14:59:53 musikc	blackace: i didnt say i did
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 14 15:00:04 2007

Jun 14 15:00:04 musikc	only said what i did to inform him
Jun 14 15:00:11 marienz	kingtaco|work: mainly referring to wolf's mail demanding we immediately drop a block
Jun 14 15:00:13 fmccor	It can go to proctors, I think.
Jun 14 15:00:19 blackace	musikc: ah ok, gotcha, from my perspective it looked like you were
Jun 14 15:00:19 musikc	marienz: i propose devrel work with proctors on this, not do it for proctors
Jun 14 15:00:25 kingtaco|work	anyway, you guys should get with devrel, they have a bunch of ideas that could help you
Jun 14 15:00:30 marienz	great
Jun 14 15:00:50 fmccor	devrel is here to serve.
Jun 14 15:01:16 musikc	splendid. so we're agreed to go into this further with proctors and will have a revised proposal by the end of next week.
Jun 14 15:02:34 musikc	are we in fact agreed or am i just making that up?
Jun 14 15:02:46 *	marienz blinks
Jun 14 15:02:57 marienz	I think you and fmccor are agreeing, at least :)
Jun 14 15:03:44 musikc	i also appear to have agreement from robbat2 and NeddySeagoon a few minutes ago, or so it seemed
Jun 14 15:04:20 NeddySeagoon	musikc, I agree that devrel and proctors need to work closely
Jun 14 15:05:02 marienz	proctors can't really agree or disagree since we haven't read whatever it is you're proposing (other than that we should work together, which I think is obviously a good idea since our scopes somewhat overlap)
Jun 14 15:05:14 musikc	so shall we continue this conversation in #gentoo-proctors?
Jun 14 15:05:18 marienz	oh, ok
Jun 14 15:05:21 NeddySeagoon	kingtaco|work, proctors still need to work behind the scenes to point out to posters that they could have phrased things better
Jun 14 15:05:43 musikc	marienz: im not asking that you agree blankly, just that you agree to work on developing it with devrel so we can take this discussion else where and let everyone get back to whatever they need to be doing
Jun 14 15:05:48 kingtaco|work	robbat2, I suppose we should put out our proposal
Jun 14 15:05:56 kingtaco|work	who's doing logs and summary?
Jun 14 15:06:16 kingtaco|work	NeddySeagoon, I don't really have any more input for the proctors today
Jun 14 15:06:59 christel	i know im late, but just a heads up, if council goes for what was proposed by devrel, i think we can very much swing this around by doing it as intended :_
Jun 14 15:07:02 christel	:)
Jun 14 15:07:07 NeddySeagoon	kingtaco|work, ok.  What of the councils keeping an eye on the proctors - we have lost the council members that used to do that
Jun 14 15:07:10 christel	(sorry, ikea ate up my evening)
Jun 14 15:07:17 robbat2	hlieberman, btw still on the issue of Catalyst, i'm all ears to hear how you can get more people to act sensibly under it
Jun 14 15:07:31 kingtaco|work	NeddySeagoon, it has always been, and for the next 3 months it will always be me
Jun 14 15:07:42 hlieberman	I'll put it on my list of things to try and figure out. :)
Jun 14 15:07:43 NeddySeagoon	kingtaco|work, Fine
Jun 14 15:07:51 kingtaco|work	others are welcome to watch
Jun 14 15:07:54 marienz	christel: ikea is eeeeeevil
Jun 14 15:07:56 jeeves	dooooooork
Jun 14 15:08:03 christel	robbat2: on freenode making people catalyze is pretty easy, however, it does take a fair chunk on one on one time with individuals to encourage them to behave in a manner appropriate :)
Jun 14 15:08:05 *	kingtaco|work gives voice to jeeves
Jun 14 15:08:12 hlieberman	jeeves++
Jun 14 15:08:33 christel	marienz: yes! but i have so much new stuff :D (and ive just been informed that im banned from going to ikea for 12 months)
Jun 14 15:08:43 marienz	christel: you should be, that's for sure
Jun 14 15:08:45 hlieberman	christel, By... the store?
Jun 14 15:08:48 *	solar wonders how much karma jeeves would have
Jun 14 15:08:59 hlieberman	christel, What did you do!?
Jun 14 15:09:40 jakub	hlieberman: she painted the whole store pink :P
Jun 14 15:09:46 fmccor	Hi, christel ; bye, christel
Jun 14 15:10:05 jmbsvicetto	jakub: :)
Jun 14 15:12:54 christel	perhaps this isn't the place for this discussion :)
Jun 14 15:13:07 *	jakub snickers
Jun 14 15:13:38 robbat2	christel, in the catalyst document you mention formal training
Jun 14 15:13:43 robbat2	what form does that presently take?
Jun 14 15:14:09 marienz	nonexistant, afaik
Jun 14 15:14:21 marienz	training, yes, formal, no
Jun 14 15:14:30 marienz	(christel: correct me if I lie)
Jun 14 15:16:15 *	dang has quit ("Leaving.")
Jun 14 15:17:36 christel	marienz: we havent done much in the way of formal training for a while, however, next batch is upcoming when we finish the appraisals
Jun 14 15:17:40 christel	:)
Jun 14 15:18:36 kloeri	good luck solving these problems everybody - in particular devrel and council that I left a bit abruptly :)
Jun 14 15:18:57 christel	robbat2: i dont think freenodes catalyst idea can be made to work for gentoo that easily really, its different fora. however, the idea of empowering people to be helpful and respectful is always a good one, and can be adapted pretty much anywhere
Jun 14 15:19:12 christel	kloeri: bitch
Jun 14 15:19:18 christel	:P
Jun 14 15:19:42 robbat2	christel, as I noted, it would work fine if every developer held themselves to it before hitting send on their email
Jun 14 15:20:25 robbat2	but that's a pipe dream with the present attitudes and behavior
Jun 14 15:20:33 kloeri	christel: now now, be a good catalyst :)
Jun 14 15:21:00 spb	remember your high school chemistry, everyone
Jun 14 15:21:04 spb	catalysts speed up reactions
Jun 14 15:21:28 robbat2	spb, lol!
Jun 14 15:21:33 hlieberman	spb++
Jun 14 15:22:47 christel	spb: ;)
Jun 14 15:23:39 christel	robbat2: yeah, however, it is something we (you) are in a position to demand :)
Jun 14 15:24:23 *	think4urs11 (n=think4ur@gentoo/developer/think4urs11) has left #gentoo-council ("see ya")
Jun 14 15:28:15 *	desultory (n=dean@gentoo/developer/desultory) has left #gentoo-council
Jun 14 15:29:21 robbat2	spb, am I correct in noting that nobody has commited to PMS in the last 2 months?
Jun 14 15:29:47 spb	entirely possible
Jun 14 15:30:32 robbat2	ok, please bug me in two weeks if you don't hear from me about how to access Git ;-)
Jun 14 15:33:54 armin76	robbat2: http://cia.vc/stats/project/PMS
Jun 14 15:34:21 robbat2	armin76, yup, that ties up with what I know
Jun 14 15:34:26 robbat2	r164 two months ago