path: root/meeting-logs/20060112.txt

-:- Topic (#gentoo-council): changed by vapier: Meeting at 1900 UTC (1400 EST) || anybody seen azarah in the last month?
06:54PM <SwifT> where am I?
06:54PM <SwifT> :p
06:55PM <vapier> batman
<solar> anybody want to step up and chair this or open session today?
06:57PM <vapier> i would but like i said, i'm prob gonna have to pop out early
06:59PM <vapier> welp, by my clock, it's about that time eh
07:00PM <vapier> i'm pretty sure az isnt going to show up
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07:00PM <vapier> Koon / seemant / solar / seemant / vapier
07:00PM <vapier> who is awake ?
<solar> check
07:01PM <SwifT> mate
07:01PM <seemant> I am awake
07:02PM <vapier> i'll assume Koon will wake shortly
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<solar> * GLEP 45 - GLEP date format <-- ok this one. This is not even for us to decide on is it? The glep editors got that one covered right?
07:02PM <vapier> yes, g2boojum is for it
07:02PM * SwifT/#gentoo-council doesn't mind at all
07:02PM <vapier> and i'm pretty sure we'd all vote yes
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07:02PM <seemant> it's not for us to decide, I should think
07:02PM <vapier> stupid freenode
-:- [Users(#gentoo-council:10)] 
[ kloeri_   ] [ tove      ] [@seemant   ] [@vapier    ] [ kallamej  ] 
[vg2boojum  ] [ FuzzyRay  ] [@SwifT     ] [ spb       ] [@solar     ] 
-:- Topic (#gentoo-council): Meeting at 1900 UTC (1400 EST) || anybody seen azarah in the last month?
-:- Topic (#gentoo-council): set by vapier at Thu Jan 12 18:54:06 2006
07:02PM <SwifT> regarding chairing, sorry, just saw the e-mail. Perhaps next meeting
<solar> who did we lose on that split?
07:03PM <seemant> I support g2boojum's ability to decide that :)
07:03PM <SwifT> Koon
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07:03PM <SwifT> here he is
<solar> ok next item is.
<solar> * disallow multiple votes per person (from ciaranm)
<solar>  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=113467833000002&r=1&w=2
07:04PM <vapier> WFM
07:04PM <SwifT> wfm?
07:04PM <seemant> the reasoning in that email is sound
07:04PM <Koon> yes too
07:04PM <seemant> so yes, wfm2
07:04PM <SwifT> isn't it Windows Meta Format or something?
07:04PM <seemant> SwifT: works for me
07:04PM <vapier> emerge wtf && wtf wfm
07:04PM <SwifT> oh, that
07:04PM <SwifT> yes, wfmaw
07:04PM <vapier> pfft that isnt real
07:05PM <vapier> you're just making s**t up
07:05PM <Koon> brb phone
07:05PM <seemant> have we all voted for that?
07:05PM <seemant> (or a majority anyway)
07:05PM <vapier> solar hasnt
<solar> I dont see the point personally and what brought it up was I'm guessing me trying to cover for az last month. 
<solar> but if the majority want to put into effect thats ok.
<solar> so yes
07:06PM <vapier> you're so accommodating
07:06PM !alindeman:*! Hi all .. Regional server looks to be having some trouble; we're working to resolve it now
<solar> next item is
<solar> * global gentoo goals for 2006
07:06PM <vapier> whee
07:06PM <vapier> that thread went to garbage fast eh
<solar> that we talked about a short bit in mail and said that global goals is not something that the council should decide. 
<solar> anybody have any input towards that subject?
07:08PM <vapier> i dont think that's it
07:08PM <seemant> so my followup question is: who's role is that to play?
<solar> explain please
07:09PM !lilo:*! Problem with a temporary main rotation server; however, we'd removed it from the main rotation as soon as we could manage, and about 800 users were affected
07:09PM <vapier> we cant just defer it, if we do we're saying "what Gentoo is now is good enough"
07:10PM <SwifT> no, but some people would like to see us 7 give the global direction where Gentoo is heading at
07:10PM <SwifT> which, frankly, will probably upset at least 7 other people :p
07:10PM <SwifT> however, if the council could work on keeping track of Gentoo's shortcomings and possible interesting areas, we can give a boost to new proposals
07:10PM <SwifT> well, not really "council" job, but someone has to :)
07:11PM <vapier> that seems feasible
07:11PM <SwifT> previously, the gentoo managers did that a bit
07:11PM <seemant> honestly, that seems more like a gentoo council job than deciding date formats
07:11PM <vapier> picking out the top "must have" goals and tracking them ?
07:11PM <SwifT> =)
07:11PM <SwifT> no, not "must have", a bit more abstract
07:11PM <seemant> just my opinion, of course, but shouldn't we focus on high level stuff rather than low level stuff?
07:11PM <seemant> as a council I mean
07:12PM <SwifT> for instance, if lots of people want Gentoo to focus more to enterprises, the council can attempt to get the enterprise gentoo project up and running
07:12PM <SwifT> without saying what we (the council) would like to see happen
07:12PM <SwifT> no?
07:14PM <seemant> I don't know
07:14PM <Koon> back
07:14PM <seemant> I'm honestly unclear on this
07:14PM <SwifT> or, if people are too upset about lacking QA, we might want to make an analysis of that and start discussions about it
07:15PM <vapier> theres the conflict of some devs disliking the lack of cohesiveness, singular purpose, while others are specifically looking for that
07:15PM <SwifT> yet, saying that the gentoo web site is too slow is purely infrastructure project
07:15PM <SwifT> true, but that doesn't mean we need to stand on opposite sides ourselves
07:15PM <Koon> I think we can elect the top best cross-project ideas and hope (pray) that some team will form and do it... but not much more
07:16PM <Koon> we lack people to do things, not people to have ideas
07:16PM <Koon> see the enterprise stuff
<solar> enterprise itself is tricky. Some have strong feelings that any enterprise should not contain bins. where I would think enterprise is the exact place we should be providing binpkgs
07:16PM <SwifT> I'm in the middle, enterprise should inform the users how to create their own, coherent binplg set :)
07:17PM <Koon> enterprise = freezed tree + reference bins
07:17PM <SwifT> s/plg/pkg/
07:17PM <vapier> eh, enterprise/GRP could be unified
07:17PM <vapier> have some dedicated autobuild boxes ala-Debian and keep a tree of current stable binpkgs
07:18PM <SwifT> which means freezing USE, C{,XX}FLAGS, make.profile, /etc/portage
<solar> I'm attempting todo that now for x86
07:18PM <vapier> there's no issue of freezing
07:18PM <vapier> expand/automate GRP
07:18PM <seemant> wait wait wait
07:18PM <SwifT> sleep(10)
07:18PM <Koon> vapier: once again, the best solution will probably be the one that a team forms around, not the one some other group decides
07:18PM <seemant> are we as a council discussing enterprise as a future direction for 2006?
07:19PM <seemant> or was the above just an example of something or the other?
07:19PM <Koon> an example, I'd say :)
07:19PM <SwifT> more of an example how we don't lack ideas
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07:19PM <vapier> i'm pretty sure if we produce such a list and enterprise was not on it, that'd be quite a failing on our part
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07:19PM <vapier> it'd basically be us saying "Gentoo is not for use in corporations, toss off"
07:20PM <SwifT> I don't think we'll be giving a list right now
07:20PM <vapier> we're brainstorming now
07:20PM <vapier> and i'm simply saying that enterprise/binpkg is a no-brainer imho
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07:20PM <Koon> vapier: it just needs some people to work on it
<solar> for the sake of anybody reading and willing to test here are my repos. ftp://tinderbox.x86.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/x86/2005.1/All/Packages
          ftp://tinderbox.x86.dev.gentoo.org/hardened/x86/Packages
07:21PM <Koon> that we cannot force in any way
07:21PM <vapier> i know
07:21PM <Koon> but we can say "here are what we think would be good directions for Gentoo, if one of them interests you, pick it up"
07:22PM <vapier> as i'm sure solar knows, i tend to be scatter brained in terms of what i'm working on at any one moment
07:22PM <SwifT> I'm kinda wondering why, if there would be a good goal for gentoo, it wouldn't be part of a single project... we already have a good separation of duties for all non-pkg
          development stuff
07:22PM <vapier> having anyone dictate a specific project would make me angry
07:23PM <Koon> maybe we should just talk about cross-project goals, not those requiring a whole new project team
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07:24PM <vapier> chatting about global gentoo direction atm agriffis
07:24PM <Koon> enterprise is more a project thing than a cross-project thing, so not sure it's our role to say "hey guys, here is a good one, now would you be so kind to form a team"
07:24PM <agriffis> vapier: ok, thanks.  somebody email me the log so I can catch up?
07:24PM <SwifT> isn't coaching people with good ideas on who to contact for what and how a good approach?
07:24PM <Koon> but it might be our role to say, hey, portage and enterprise teams, please play nice
07:25PM <SwifT> yeah, don't spank each other unless they like it
07:25PM <Koon> anyway, we'll lack time at this meeting to define the goal list
07:26PM <vapier> i think of it as us deciding whats most important in terms of greatest benefit to long term Gentoo
07:26PM <Koon> was there anything else to discuss, 'coz this one can take a long time...
07:26PM <agriffis> I understand that GLEP 45 and Ciaran's no-multiple-vote proposal have already been discussed.  Regarding the first one, it's fine with me.  Regarding the second, I wish I
          hadn't missed the discussion, but the otherwise I don't think it's a bad idea anyway, so I'm fine with it.
07:26PM <vapier> this was last item, but it was more of a brain storm session
07:26PM <Koon> ok
07:26PM <SwifT> or attempt to have new stuff well prepared for release... instead of just committing, making sure a press release is made with screenshots and articles, a nice news item, good,
          solid documentation, ...
<solar> that would be nice swift.
07:27PM <Koon> vapier: we should also track progress in portage signing, since last month
07:27PM <SwifT> that's theoretical :)
<solar> I still like it
07:27PM * SwifT/#gentoo-council for instance is really hoping axxo's java repo hits portage with a good release information, updated documentation, ...
07:27PM <SwifT> :)
07:28PM <SwifT> same with new features that gentoo/hardened supports
07:28PM <vapier> well the manifest stuff is in portage now, so next step is handling of keys
<solar> hardened is and probably will remain in maintenance mode. My goal is of course to see more hardened by default for gentoo
07:29PM <vapier> hardened i see as being a slightly tweaked flavor
07:29PM <vapier> that if all the other pieces fall into place, hardened is an extra pass
07:30PM <SwifT> or what about a knowledge base for gentoo/linux? A place where errors are stored, the circumstances when that error will occur and how to resolve it together with information as
          to why it happens...
07:30PM <Koon> vapier: should we follow robbat2 solution or the old simple "keychain-stored-in-portage, validated once using master key, then at each emerge sync" solution ?
07:30PM * SwifT/#gentoo-council stops brainstorming
07:30PM <vapier> SwifT: that sounds like hopping onto irc and pasting an error into #gentoo :)
07:31PM <SwifT> =)
<solar> that is what wikis are for. But you the formep GDP lead did not want those if I recall
07:31PM <SwifT> unable to mount root fs, probably the most frequent question on the forums
07:31PM <agriffis> Koon: is the robbat2 solution published somewhere?
07:31PM <SwifT> true, I don't like any  documentation way where no qa is involved
07:31PM <SwifT> wikipedia is great because *many* eyes are watching
07:31PM <Koon> agriffis: gentoo-dev archive I suppose...
07:31PM <SwifT> gentoo-wiki fails there for most articles, for instance
07:31PM <Koon> agriffis: hm. maybe was posted to -core
<solar> I think there is a problem with robbat2's solution. portage devs seem to want it to go another direction. 
<solar> sadly none of them are here to speak up
07:32PM <agriffis> Koon: ok, I'll look for it.  Generally I'm impressed by anything that robbat2 suggests regarding gnupg, signing, etc.  I'd be hesitant to disregard it without careful
          consideration.
07:32PM <Koon> agriffis: history on the subject is : we had a painful discussion on gentoo-dev about 18 months ago and the solution most agreed on was the "simple but doable" one
07:33PM !lilo:*! orphaned group contact for Novell, Inc....that group registration has been inactivated
07:33PM <agriffis> Koon: ok, I'll have to look it up, I guess.  I'm sure I read it then, but it's slipped away at this point.
07:33PM <Koon> then robbat2 said he would handle it and designed a nice solution... but apparently not taht easy to implement
07:33PM <Koon> especially when its author disappears
<solar> I trust robbat2 also, but the direction he wants to go in requires devs getting together for key signing parties to form big chains of trust.
07:34PM <vapier> solar: i dont see how it can be done any other way
<solar> that is clearly going to be a problem when we have a dev tucked away in some corner of the world
07:34PM <Koon> I prefer the "simple but now" solution to the "unbreakable but tomorrow" one
07:34PM <vapier> LWE and such help a lot with that
07:35PM !lilo:*! Okay, deactivated if you prefer. Sheesh. Grammar wonks. *grin*
07:35PM <SwifT> or, "simple now and unbreakable tomorrow"?
07:35PM <agriffis> well, clearly whatever is implemented, we don't want to present it as something it isn't.
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<solar> anybody ever met azarah or me in person?
07:36PM <vapier> i'll fly down for butt sex with you solar
07:36PM <SwifT> not sure I want that ;p
07:36PM <agriffis> so if we go with a simple solution with flaws, we need to present it as that, and our reasons (meaning gentoo's not the council's) for doing so.
<solar> I've say it should be simple to begin with and made stronger and better over time
07:36PM <SwifT> j/k
07:36PM <vapier> i'm gonna try to fly to fl this year, could make a stop over :p
<solar> hush you
07:37PM <Koon> I would just do a flat keychain for starters
07:37PM <Koon> signed by a master key, verified by release media or public www servers
07:37PM <vapier> well the level of trust would be up to the user
07:37PM <Koon> always time to do chain of trust things to replace that
07:37PM <vapier> same as with gpg, how did you verify the key/person
07:39PM <Koon> the chain of trust thing adds identification to the process, that's not very useful... people trust "solar" more than "Ned Ludd"
07:39PM <agriffis> What about a hybrid solution, where the level of trust in a key is reported somehow to the user on request?  (i.e. this package has a chain of trust from the master key vs.
          this package has no chain of trust, or however robbat2's solution works)
07:39PM <Koon> we just need authentication
07:39PM <agriffis> perhaps I'm just demonstrating my lack of knowledge on the topic.
07:39PM <vapier> agriffis: gpg already tracks that
07:40PM <agriffis> vapier: good, but it needs to be wrapped in a portage interface so emerge can report easily
07:41PM <vapier> i gotta jet, time for doctors appt
<solar> cya vapier 
07:42PM <agriffis> btw, since I arrived late... who is chairing?
07:42PM <seemant> solar is chair
<solar> I am?
07:43PM <agriffis> ha, strike that from the log, quick!
07:43PM <SwifT> you are pointing out the agenda subjects :)
<solar> sorry I just wanted to get this thing going today.
07:43PM <SwifT> :)
<solar> anyway I guess the formal meeting was over when agriffis added his votes in
<solar> everything else remains brainstorming?
07:44PM <Koon> yes
07:44PM <Koon> we should require proper glepping of robbat2's solution
<solar> ok then back to portage signing. 
<solar> another blocker I see is the whole eclass+profiles 
07:45PM <Koon> I thought that was taken care of.
<solar> repoman has no support for those and probably wont for some time. But it's clear we will need a wrapper around commiting to those
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<solar> I'm not away that was taken care of by any tool
<solar> what have you heard on the subject which makes you think that?
07:46PM <Koon> maybe discussion on new eclasses a few months ago
07:46PM <Koon> I don't remember
07:47PM <agriffis> another thing I'd like to know about is interaction between signing and binary packages.  just wondering how/if that would work.
07:48PM <SwifT> makes me think about disec
<solar> we are going to have to come up with a detached method for signatures
<solar> disec was the in ELF signatures?
07:48PM <SwifT> yup
<solar> if so that wont work. think shell scripts
<solar> that entire idea was flawed. We picked it apart for two days in hardned
07:49PM <SwifT> ah
<solar> brb
07:49PM <Koon> binary packages are tarballs... so I guess they could include signature info
07:50PM <Koon> but that definitely needs some more work in design
07:50PM <Koon> hence the "show me your GLEP" thing
07:51PM * SwifT/#gentoo-council needs to go, catch my train 
07:51PM <SwifT> sorry folks
07:52PM <Koon> hm. we should definitely brainstorm some more
07:52PM <Koon> but no need to do it in-session
07:55PM <Koon> looks like the meeting is dead -- solar if you have the log you can cvs it... that will earn you your chairman turn :)
<solar> I do not have a log
07:56PM <Koon> me neither :)
<solar> however my scrollback buffer does go back till last meeting
<solar> I'll do it the hard copy+paste way
07:57PM <tove> so why not start a tree signing project to gather all problems, questions, solutions, ideas. taking the discussion away from -dev or -core for some time