path: root/meeting-logs/20070412.txt

[15:59] <vapier> get things rolling ?  or we want to wait until exactly 2000UTC
[15:59] <solar> heh. odd. I just /msg taco asking him what time the meeting way
[15:59] <solar> was
[16:00] <kingtaco|work> I'm here
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[16:00] <wolf31o2|mobile> I'm semi-here
[16:00] <UberLord> I'm semi here - only just got home
[16:00] <vapier> anyone feel like chairing it ?  if not i can do it up doggy style
[16:01] <wolf31o2|mobile> I think you just volunteered
[16:01] <vapier> err, that wasnt meant to be
[16:01] <Kugelfang> vapier: tell sejo to sod of till after the meeting
[16:01] <Kugelfang> vapier: you can't be humped right now
[16:01] <vapier> fine, roll call
[16:01] <vapier> i need a kloeri and a robbat2
[16:02] <robbat2> hi
[16:02] <vapier> kloeri: wake up
[16:02] <vapier> we can start with http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/47673
[16:02] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council +m]
[16:02] <vapier>  - documentation for mail servers still pending i believe (SPF / reply-to)
[16:03] <Kugelfang> king of tacos wanted to commit it
[16:03] <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: right?
[16:03] <vapier> wolf31o2 / KingTaco / robbat2: ?
[16:03] <robbat2> i think the docs on those are done, just not commited yet
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[16:03] <wolf31o2|mobile> vapier: someone from infra was to commit it... if it hasn't been done, I can take the lead on doing the commit... since /proj is free game to everyone anyway
[16:04] <Kugelfang> do it!
[16:04] <Kugelfang> :-)
[16:04] <vapier> yeah, do it
[16:05] <vapier> people keep saying their done
[16:05] <vapier> proooove it and post em
[16:05] <robbat2> i'm not sure who's got the latest revisions of them, so just grab those and commit :-)
[16:05] <vapier> if they arent up by next meeting, you guys die
[16:05] <vapier> no that isnt a joke
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[16:05] <vapier> next topic
[16:05] <wolf31o2|mobile> robbat2: well, I did reply-to, so I know I have the latest there, and kloeri has latest spf
[16:05] <Kugelfang> vapier: the can still appeal before execution
[16:05] <vapier>  - sync Social Contract with Gentoo Foundation statement (external entities)
[16:06] <vapier> anyone against that ?  need that be moved to trustees ?
[16:06] <wolf31o2|mobile> what exactly did you mean by that one?
[16:06] <wolf31o2|mobile> well, here's what I think... the social contract applies to what we *make*
[16:06] <vapier> http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/#doc_chap2
[16:06] <wolf31o2|mobile> anything regarding what we *use* should be directed to the trustees
[16:06] <vapier> last part "Gentoo is independent"
[16:07] <vapier> social contract is a promise to the people who use Gentoo
[16:07] <vapier> it just largely covers what we make as that is largely how people use Gentoo
[16:07] <wolf31o2|mobile> that doesn't change what I said... :P
[16:07] <vapier> me neither !
[16:07] <robbat2> err, which direction are you wanting to sync things in?
[16:07] <vapier> foundation -> social contract
[16:07] <robbat2> as they seem orthagonal atm
[16:08] <wolf31o2|mobile> right... I guess I just see no point in duplicating those statements... though it might make more sense to have the foundation page clarified more
[16:08] <kloeri> hi guys
[16:08] <vapier> the rest of the principles are duped
[16:08] <vapier> more or less
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[16:09] <Kugelfang> vapier: do you have a patch against the social contract?
[16:09] <Kugelfang> i'm all for taking it in, but i need to read the diff first before i make up my mind
[16:09] <vapier> copy and paste the part from the foundation
[16:09] <vapier> wrap it in <p> </p>
[16:09] <vapier> profit
[16:10] <Kugelfang> s/Gentoo Foundation/Gentoo/
[16:10] <Kugelfang> by all means, do it
[16:10] <robbat2> kloeri, you had the SPF document somewhere? commit it please?
[16:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> robbat2: I'll get it... it needs to be guidexml'd
[16:10] <vapier> anyone else have an opinion ?
[16:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> yeah, I think it is pointless to duplicate it
[16:10] <kloeri> yeah, http://dev.gentoo.org/~kloeri/spf.txt
[16:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> I'd much prefer see the trustees qualify those statements more
[16:10] <vapier> wolf31o2: you dont fall into the "else" category
[16:11] <wolf31o2|mobile> heh
[16:11] <vapier> wolf31o2: sure, we can do that first
[16:11] <vapier> i'd insert like "outside" before "organization"
[16:11] <vapier> and fix the spelling so it reads "organization"
[16:12] <robbat2> vapier, I agree in concept, but i'd like to see the diff first
[16:12] * UberLord agrees with robbat2
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[16:12] <vapier> you guys really cant use your imagination huh
[16:13] * UberLord has none :(
[16:13] <vapier> the content is unchanged, the diff would only show formatting
[16:13] <UberLord> i gotta split for a few minutes
[16:13] <vapier> we can simply slack and ask the trustees to tweak it a bit
[16:13] <vapier> then chat more next time
[16:14] <robbat2> just bounce it in the -council mailing list after you hear from them?
[16:14] <Kugelfang> no, -dev
[16:14] <Kugelfang> just like all the other stuff we vote on
[16:14] <vapier> i say we make wolf31o2 do it
[16:14] <Kugelfang> if somebody wants to give input then i'd like to hear it
[16:14] <robbat2> vapier, could we let him put out the 2007 release first?
[16:14] <wolf31o2|mobile> it doesn't really belong on either, since the social contract is really something that pre-dates the foundation and should be completely superseded by the foundation now
[16:15] <wolf31o2|mobile> robbat2: heh... that's what I'm working on right now... which is why I said I am only "semi-here"
[16:16] <vapier> then let the trustees do their thing and we'll talk about syncing once they have
[16:16] <vapier> that work for everyone ?
[16:16] <robbat2> yup
[16:16] <kingtaco|work> sure
[16:16] <kloeri> yup
[16:16] <wolf31o2|mobile> wfm
[16:16] <Kugelfang> yes
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[16:17] <vapier> wolf31o2: it's on your head then kthx
[16:17] <vapier> up next, CoC
[16:17] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council +vv christel amne]
[16:17] <kingtaco|work> CoC is building up proctors
[16:17] --- kingtaco|work sets modes [#gentoo-council -v christel]
[16:17] <vapier> pwnt
[16:18] <kingtaco|work> she removed herself
[16:18] <vapier> i missed that
[16:18] <wolf31o2|mobile> quick CoC suggestion... we discuss changes here, then write them up and send them to -dev for discussion... as far as changes to the actual document
[16:18] <vapier> amne is heading it up now then ?
[16:18] <kingtaco|work> yes
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[16:19] <kingtaco|work> he is building up proctors in different timezones, seemed to be a bit heavy on #gentoo people at first, but that's subsided
[16:19] <kingtaco|work> they've done nothing other than that
[16:19] <vapier> what else is there for them to do now other than recruit their foot soldiers
[16:19] <kingtaco|work> not much else
[16:20] <vapier> so the notes i posted were based on e-mails no one responded to in the big CoC thread
[16:20] <vapier> mainly kevinquinn and g2boojum
[16:20] <kingtaco|work> not sure what you're refering to
[16:20] <vapier>  - add a "mission" statement
[16:20] <vapier>  - fix wording to have a positive spin
[16:20] <kingtaco|work> I think most of us stopped reading that after the trolls invaded
[16:20] <vapier> i dont have the gmane links atm to the specific e-mails
[16:20] <robbat2> on the infra end, they've got the first tool they need to block stuff that they need to, the second one is taking longer than I thought due to upstream bits with mlmmj, but i'm working on it still
[16:21] <Kugelfang> good
[16:21] <kingtaco|work> vapier, can you send that to proctors@ so they can work on it?
[16:21] <Kugelfang> what's the second tool supposed to do?
[16:21] <robbat2> i thought the "positive spin" comment was meant against the initial version, before we revised it?
[16:21] <vapier> robbat2: i dont feel like any of our revisions addressed that
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[16:21] <vapier> it's still an angry document
[16:22] <robbat2> Kugelfang, see the original implementation plan - the second tool will provide proper consensus support for proctors
[16:22] <Kugelfang> i see
[16:22] <vapier> i'm not sure we want to redraft it, just have the proctors do it and bring it back
[16:23] <kingtaco|work> you want it to look more like the ubuntu stuff?
[16:23] <Kugelfang> not everything needs to have sugar on-top
[16:23] <vapier> i'd prefer we were one big amoeba
[16:23] <Kugelfang> na... i don't want to share one cell with you!
[16:24] <vapier> but until then, i feel that the way ubuntu's is written and the way ours is written are different polls
[16:24] <vapier> i can live with middle ground
[16:25] <robbat2> Kugelfang, keep your puesdopods to yourself?
[16:25] <Kugelfang> puesdopods?
[16:25] <Kugelfang> ah, pseudopods!
[16:25] <Kugelfang> gotcha
[16:25] <vapier> anywho
[16:26] <vapier> any opinions ?
[16:26] <Kugelfang> amne: any input from your side?
[16:26] <robbat2> nope. - after the PMS stuff, I've got one other quick question for council before the open floor
[16:26] <kingtaco|work> I think it's worded fine, but I don't care one way or the other'
[16:27] <vapier> you're an angry man, this i know
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[16:27] <kingtaco|work> haha
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[16:28] <vapier> amne: you awake ?  or you just mostly for show ?
[16:28] <Kugelfang> vapier: well, this is to vague... as with the social contract, show me a diff and i say something
[16:28] <wolf31o2|mobile> Kugelfang: I think the point is to assign making the diff to someone
[16:28] <Kugelfang> ahh
[16:28] <kingtaco|work> arn't we off that topic?
[16:29] <wolf31o2|mobile> kingtaco|laptop: the CoC updates, we mean
[16:29] <wolf31o2|mobile> and if nobody else steps up... I can do it... not like I have anything else to do
[16:29] <vapier> you can work with amne on it
[16:29] <Kugelfang> wolf31o2|mobile: let amne handle it... i don't think council should be any more involved than saying yay or nay to it
[16:29] <vapier> and by work with amne i mean have amne do it but tell us you helped
[16:29] <wolf31o2|mobile> Kugelfang: sure
[16:30] <wolf31o2|mobile> vapier: sounds like a plan
[16:30] <vapier> anyone else ?  UberLord / kloeri / robbat2 ?
[16:30] <kingtaco|work> where is kloeri?
[16:30] <robbat2> no problems with that
[16:30] <kingtaco|work> is he a slacker?
[16:30] <Kugelfang> no
[16:30] <vapier> [16:07] <kloeri> hi guys
[16:30] <kingtaco|work> ok
[16:30] <robbat2> he pasted the spf link too
[16:30] <robbat2> 20 minutes back
[16:31] <kingtaco|work> okok
[16:31] <Kugelfang> robbat2: keep kingtaco|work's lack of short-time memory in mind
[16:31] <Kugelfang> :-P
[16:31] <vapier> they can chime in later but i'm pretty sure they'll be ok with that
[16:31] <vapier> moving on to hopefully a quickie
[16:31] <vapier>  - splitting gentoo-dev mailing lists ?
[16:31] <kingtaco|work> I think it's a stupid idea
[16:31] <Kugelfang> -dev-announce and -dev?
[16:31] <vapier> i think people were generally against this
[16:31] <vapier> dont post crap to -dev is the answer ?
[16:31] <Kugelfang> it comes up everytime we have a flamewar
[16:32] <kingtaco|work> I think we should clean up the current lists instead
[16:32] <Kugelfang> when the proctors work we don't need the split
[16:32] <kingtaco|work> it puts more load on infra boxes and doesn't solve anything
[16:32] <robbat2> yeah, don't post crap to -dev.
[16:32] <vapier> seems like splitting the lists just moves the problem around
[16:32] <Kugelfang> vapier: agreed
[16:32] <vapier> and when the problem surfaces elsewhere, people will split that
[16:32] <kingtaco|work> if anything, I'd like to see lists removed
[16:32] <kingtaco|work> consolidated with other lists
[16:32] <UberLord> back
[16:33] <kingtaco|work> we have a plethora of lists that are meaningless
[16:33] <vapier> hmm i think the lists of lists is outdated
[16:33] <robbat2> yeah, I was looking at list stuff the other day, there's at least a dozen lists we should declare closed
[16:33] <vapier> ive had some of the embedded ones killed off and consolidated
[16:33] <robbat2> because nobody has used them for more than a year
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[16:33] <robbat2> i'll take point on that if you want
[16:33] <vapier> robbat2: can you compile said list and post to dev ?
[16:34] <robbat2> yeah, will do
[16:34] <Kugelfang> Uber: flakey connection?
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[16:34] <vapier> i think he has multiple computers
[16:34] <Uber> multiple locations - am now at home
[16:34] <kloeri> sorry, my internet connection dropped out - been on and off all evening
[16:35] <vapier> "I think some people are arguing that splitting gentoo-dev and *requiring* devs to follow a list with only announcements, would reduce the stress to devs"
[16:35] <vapier> yeah / neah ?
[16:35] <Kugelfang> nay
[16:35] <kingtaco|work> nay
[16:35] <robbat2> a lot don't follow -dev already
[16:36] <wolf31o2|mobile> I think it would... but I'd say nay for now... let's see what the proctors do for the situation before enacting any further measures
[16:36] <robbat2> so it's a pointless request
[16:36] <Kugelfang> wolf31o2|mobile: agreed with the later
[16:36] <robbat2> who here didn't mark at least some part of the flamewars threads as read without reading the entire thing?
[16:36] <vapier> sounds like a plan man
[16:36] * wolf31o2|mobile didn't
[16:36] <vapier> kmail has an option to mark a thread as read automatically
[16:36] <Kugelfang> robbat2: i can claim i read it all
[16:36] <wolf31o2|mobile> though I probably should have
[16:36] <kingtaco|work> I mark a thread as spam as soon as ciaranm has more than 3 posts in it
[16:37] <vapier> usually a safe bet
[16:37] <Uber> i can claim that I bined most of them. Probably not the best thing but they waste my time.
[16:37] <robbat2> Kugelfang, wolf31o2|mobile: and how many hours of your life would you like back?
[16:37] <vapier> any other input or shall we close out here ?
[16:37] <Kugelfang> robbat2: several
[16:37] <robbat2> nothing more for this topic I think
[16:37] <kloeri> I'm happy to see what the proctors and CoC can do to help clean the lists up for now
[16:37] <vapier> moving on
[16:37] <robbat2> PMS next, then my short item (surveys)
[16:38] <Kugelfang> excellent
[16:38] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council +v spb]
[16:38] --- Kugelfang sets modes [#gentoo-council +v spb]
[16:38] <vapier>  - PMS:
[16:38] <vapier>  - status update from spb
[16:38] <vapier>  - moving it to Gentoo svn
[16:38] <vapier>  - schedule for getting remaining issues settled
[16:38] <Kugelfang> darn
[16:38] <Kugelfang> spb: are you here?
[16:38] <spb> yes
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[16:39] <vapier> you're in the spotlight bub
[16:40] <spb> status: you presumably saw my latest -dev mail
[16:40] <spb> plus http://tinyurl.com/2z58xn
[16:40] <vapier> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/47944
[16:40] <spb> yes, that one
[16:40] <Kugelfang> i count 15 open bugs of 50
[16:40] <Kugelfang> nice work
[16:41] <vapier> i dont think the buglist covers all the TODO's that are in the src ?
[16:41] <vapier> i havent checked recently
[16:41] <Kugelfang> ahn, and i think some of those bugs are already fixed in SVN
[16:41] <Kugelfang> vapier: i think ciaranm made sure they are in sync some days ago...
[16:41] <spb> vapier: probably not; there's at least one TODO that says "write dohtml"
[16:41] <spb> or was
[16:42] <vapier> now that we have proper bugzilla tracking, no more TODO's in the src
[16:42] <vapier> at least none w/out a bug #
[16:42] <spb> but the general idea is to resolve the current round of bug reports and TODOs, then repeat the process until new ones stop appearing
[16:42] <vapier> sure
[16:42] <vapier> KingTaco: ?
[16:42] <kingtaco|work> vapier, ?
[16:43] <vapier> just making sure you're happy with current status
[16:43] <vapier> dont want any blue balls
[16:43] <kingtaco|work> it's following the timelines we decided last month, I don't have any complaints on that
[16:44] <vapier> k, so getting it moved to gentoo infra
[16:44] <Kugelfang> robbat2 has a plan for it
[16:44] <vapier> robbat2: ?
[16:44] <spb> will happen once gentoo infra can offer what the project needs
[16:44] <Kugelfang> that allows both solar and ciaran do contribute to it
[16:44] <robbat2> I didn't heard a solid yes on spb from that when we discussed it in -infra
[16:44] <vapier> frankly i dont think external entities should hold up any move
[16:45] <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed
[16:45] <Kugelfang> vapier: but moves shouldn't be rushed either
[16:45] <robbat2> the plan there was since infra won't allow outside people to commit to SVN, was everybody happy if they could commit to GIT instead
[16:45] <robbat2> (and yes, that includes ciaranm)
[16:45] <vapier> via proxy which git allows trivially, sure
[16:45] <spb> if git can work with the central repository model without introducing extra overhead
[16:45] <Kugelfang> vapier: plan was: people commit to git, spb pulls from git and commits to svn
[16:46] <spb> that sounds like a pita to me
[16:46] <robbat2> no
[16:46] <robbat2> that wasn
[16:46] <robbat2> 't it
[16:46] <Kugelfang> robbat2: mail?
[16:46] <Kugelfang> robbat2: i'm sorry
[16:46] <robbat2> it was that it was moving to git directly, and those that spb wanted, could direct-commit for the moment, but that there would be a reviewed branch that only spb could commit to
[16:46] <Kugelfang> i see
[16:47] <vapier> where are we moving the EAPI project here ?  sub project of portage ?
[16:47] <Kugelfang> vapier: QA
[16:47] <Kugelfang> vapier: it is already a QA subproject
[16:47] <robbat2> because spb wasn't compromising on wanting ciaranm to have direct-commit to it at the moment
[16:47] <vapier> well no external entities should have direct access to gentoo infra
[16:48] <vapier> that's why you become a developer
[16:48] <Kugelfang> vapier: not true
[16:48] <Kugelfang> vapier: see overlays
[16:48] <vapier> true
[16:48] <Kugelfang> vapier: it's the very same process
[16:48] <robbat2> it depends how you define direct access
[16:48] <Kugelfang> people commit, but it needs to be reviewed
[16:48] <vapier> but i consider this a little more important than overlays
[16:48] <Kugelfang> which spb does
[16:48] <vapier> k
[16:49] <robbat2> infra won't give any access to non-devs that needs SSH keys.
[16:49] <vapier> put a timeframe on it to be done by next meeting then ?
[16:49] <spb> and if you look at the sort of changes that have been going in, it's easy for me to look over them and say "yes, ok"
[16:49] <spb> it would however be a complete pita to proxy each commit
[16:49] <robbat2> spb: you don't have to proxy each one with git
[16:49] <vapier> depends on the scm
[16:49] <robbat2> you can just do: 'git pull foo-from-ciaranm && git push ...'
[16:49] <robbat2> done
[16:50] <spb> if git lets him commit to one branch and have me pull all updates since i last did in one command then that works for me
[16:50] <robbat2> where foo-from-ciaranm is the tree of all his changes
[16:50] <vapier> i think here we just need to agree on a time frame
[16:50] <vapier> you guys can hash it out in -infra
[16:50] <robbat2> ok, then that's solved without any extra access :-)
[16:50] <spb> this also relies upon him being able and willing to use git
[16:50] <robbat2> since the merging is easier than you thought
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[16:52] <vapier> eh eh eh ?
[16:52] <vapier> get the infra stuff resolved by next meeting ?
[16:52] <spb> i'm willing to try it, but there are other parties than me involved
[16:52] <robbat2> yeah, i'll have a git tree for people to suck down before the weekend is over
[16:52] <vapier> thats the other parties problem
[16:52] <vapier> not ours
[16:52] <kingtaco|work> it's not just him that gets a say
[16:52] <kingtaco|work> it's our devs
[16:53] * Uber nods
[16:53] <spb> 'our devs' has to include the people actually working on pms
[16:53] <vapier> no it doesnt
[16:53] <spb> because i'm not going to move if it means losing those contributions
[16:53] <spb> basically
[16:54] <vapier> well either it gets moved voluntarily or not so much voluntarily
[16:54] <vapier> you guys can hash it out in #-infra and post notes to the council alias as "significant" issues arise
[16:55] <robbat2> council ML, not the alias
[16:55] <vapier> err yes, sorry
[16:55] <Kugelfang> nod
[16:55] <robbat2> anything more on PMS?
[16:55] <vapier> do we want to talk about a timeframe for EAPI-0 ?
[16:56] <vapier> or let the current round of feedback go through and assume that it'll work itself out in the next month
[16:56] <kingtaco|work> I think it's best to let the devs figure it out
[16:56] <Kugelfang> it is
[16:56] <vapier> k
[16:57] <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed
[16:57] <kloeri> agreed
[16:57] <Kugelfang> robbat2: can you write some lines for me on your implementation plan?
[16:57] <robbat2> yeah, let it work itself out in the next month
[16:57] <Kugelfang> robbat2: per mail or /msg?
[16:57] <robbat2> Kugelfang, I will later, I have to go out after this meeting
[16:57] <Kugelfang> robbat2: re PMS on gentoo infra that is
[16:57] <Kugelfang> robbat2: sure, sure!
[16:57] <robbat2> ok, the one last item I had, just as a quick show of hands from council
[16:58] <vapier> sure
[16:58] <vapier> i think the last checklist items i have will get knocked out quickly
[16:58] <robbat2> AFTER the 2007.0 release is out, I feel we should redo the original user survey
[16:58] <robbat2> that lead to the releases being bi-annual
[16:58] <kingtaco|work> I vote yes
[16:58] <robbat2> to see what users consider of the various directions of Gentoo
[16:58] <vapier> how were the previous ones handled ?
[16:58] <vapier> i didnt know we had a survey until it was completed
[16:59] <robbat2> we've only done one before
[16:59] <vapier> but yes, a new survey posted to frontpage and such sounds good
[16:59] <wolf31o2|mobile> robbat2: that survey had nothing to do with the releases being bi-annual, by the way
[16:59] <robbat2> wolf31o2|mobile, oh, the way it read there was overwelming support for bi-annual releases
[16:59] <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed... I wouldn't mind seeing a new survey done... and hopefully, done on a regular basis
[17:00] <vapier> we should do a survey after each release ;P
[17:00] <wolf31o2|mobile> robbat2: sure it does... but it was after we'd already switched... heh
[17:00] <vapier> bi annual surveys
[17:00] <vapier> slashdot poll style
[17:00] <robbat2> and on a second part of surveying, could we add a specific developer survey, to help identify the demographics and activity level of developers?
[17:01] <wolf31o2|mobile> sounds good
[17:01] <robbat2> i'm willing to take on both of these items
[17:01] <vapier> could make that part of the recruitment process
[17:01] <vapier> and leave it open all the time ...
[17:01] <robbat2> vapier: no, just annually, closer to a census
[17:01] <vapier> so you have "up-to-date" numbers all the time ...
[17:01] <vapier> pfft
[17:01] <vapier> Kugelfang / kloeri / Uber ?
[17:02] * Uber votes yes
[17:02] <Kugelfang> moment
[17:02] <vapier> http://staff.osuosl.org/~cshields/gentoosurvey/#doc_chap8
[17:02] <Kugelfang> annual: yes
[17:03] <vapier> s/annual/doing surveys/ :p
[17:03] <vapier> robbat2: i think that shows we like the idea of surveys
[17:03] <vapier> cshields' previous one would prob be a good starting point, but we'll leave that to you
[17:03] <vapier> do it under the pr project ?
[17:03] <vapier> userrel ?
[17:03] <robbat2> yeah, i'll look at them for after the 2007.0 release is completed, since I want releng's help on some of the user questions
[17:04] <robbat2> PR probably
[17:04] <vapier> just wanting the surveys on gentoo.org/ rather than random dev space
[17:04] <vapier> a few quickies i think
[17:04] <robbat2> yeah, definetly. we previously used survey.gentoo.org
[17:05] <vapier> nattfodd: limiting ourselves
[17:05] <vapier> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/47683
[17:05] <vapier> i think the response seemed to be "if you dont like actions, then let us know on -dev and/or vote the bums out"
[17:06] <robbat2> i agree there, if we overstep our bounds, more than just the usual vocal minority will complain
[17:06] <vapier> i'm big on g2boojum in general and his opinion was that the original structure was designed this way on purpose
[17:06] <vapier> so i'm happy to defer to him
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[17:07] <wolf31o2|mobile> I'd agree
[17:07] <vapier> anyone else ?  KingTaco kloeri Kugelfang Uber ?
[17:07] <Kugelfang> we are elected for one year. the next council can revert anything we do
[17:07] <vapier> true
[17:07] <Kugelfang> i don't see a problem there
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[17:07] <Uber> i'm fine
[17:07] <kingtaco|work> this still about surveys?
[17:08] <Uber> yes
[17:08] <vapier> heh
[17:08] <kingtaco|work> I still vote yes
[17:08] <vapier> KingTaco: limiting council's power
[17:08] <kingtaco|work> eh?
[17:08] <vapier> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/47683
[17:08] <kingtaco|work> limiting to what or how
[17:08] <wolf31o2|mobile> I agree... about the only thing I would see would be adding a provision allowing for reopening nominations/voting if >=50% of the entire developer pool votes to do so... since that would mean we majorly screwed the pooch
[17:08] <kingtaco|work> oh, I think that's stilly
[17:08] <kingtaco|work> *silly
[17:09] <vapier> k
[17:09] <kingtaco|work> you don't like it, don't vote for those people next time
[17:09] <vapier> wolf31o2: you mean a vote of no confidence ?
[17:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> vapier: right... just currently there's nothing in place for such a thing to occur... I tend to agree with taco that it should just wait for the next elections... but a compromise could be to add that specific wording to allow a >=50% vote
[17:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> and this wouldn't be on a specific issue
[17:10] <vapier> we dont have any real way of measuring that
[17:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> I mean on the whole council... just like a vote of no confidence
[17:10] <wolf31o2|mobile> we know how many devs we have
[17:10] <vapier> right
[17:11] <robbat2> we don't have an accurate take on how many of them are active
[17:11] <vapier> but do you e-mail them all ?  post to -core ?
[17:11] <kingtaco|work> devs could already do a vote of no confidence
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[17:11] <wolf31o2|mobile> vapier: *we* don't do anything...
[17:11] <vapier> we dont have anything on dev.g.o to count it up
[17:11] <kingtaco|work> I'd accept it if they had 50% of devs with gpg sigs
[17:11] <robbat2> if 20% are really inactive, that means the remaining 80% needs more than 50% in favour
[17:11] <kingtaco|work> make that 51%
[17:12] <kingtaco|work> but I still think the entire thing is silly
[17:12] <wolf31o2|mobile> ok... let's simplify this
[17:12] <vapier> i think generally if there's a majority of the dev base who want us out, we'd see the reaction
[17:12] <Kugelfang> agreed
[17:12] <wolf31o2|mobile> do we think we need to write specific wording into the council glep to allow for a vote of no confidence, or is that implied? yes or no
[17:12] <robbat2> no
[17:12] <kingtaco|work> no
[17:12] <wolf31o2|mobile> no here
[17:13] <Kugelfang> no
[17:13] <Uber> no
[17:13] <vapier> you had two questions and expected a yes/no :p
[17:13] <wolf31o2|mobile> I agree, if all of a sudden devs all over the place are ripping us a new one, it'll be obvious
[17:13] <wolf31o2|mobile> heh
[17:13] <wolf31o2|mobile> vapier: eat it
[17:13] <vapier> i dont think we need to expand the GLEP
[17:13] <wolf31o2|mobile> thanks
[17:13] <vapier> as you say, we'd get ripped
[17:13] <wolf31o2|mobile> sorry, that was what I meant to ask
[17:13] <vapier> tag it and bag it then
[17:13] <wolf31o2|mobile> k
[17:13] <robbat2> FYI, I have to leave in ~10 minutes for a work meeting
[17:13] <vapier>  - a time frame on moving gentoo-core to public archives
[17:14] <wolf31o2|mobile> <-- never
[17:14] <vapier> i think people we generally against this with some for it
[17:14] <robbat2> i agree with never
[17:14] <kingtaco|work> vapier, while I wouldn'
[17:14] <vapier> but some noted that they would be less forth coming on -core if this happened
[17:14] <robbat2> never, and be more proactive on telling people to move stuff to -dev
[17:14] <kingtaco|work> vapier, while I wouldn't oppose doing it from this point forward, we can't leak out old stuff on -core
[17:15] <vapier> i tend to be on the extreme where i have no problem with people reading anything/everything i say/do
[17:15] <vapier> except for the man
[17:15] <vapier> Kugelfang / Uber / kloeri ?
[17:15] <kingtaco|work> that said, I'm pretty sure it leaks out anyway
[17:15] <vapier> true, but as long as people have that warm fuzzy
[17:16] <Uber> i have no issue with future stuff being publically avaiable
[17:16] <Kugelfang> vapier: 1 year frame
[17:17] <vapier> while i would post my stuff freely, i dont feel comfortable forcing others who feel they would not use the list anymore if it were moved publically
[17:18] <kingtaco|work> I think that's a majority
[17:18] <vapier> robbat2: any idea when we could at least get a dev-only archive of -core ?
[17:18] <kingtaco|work> that said, most of those people don't post to -core
[17:18] <vapier> that's still a critical missing archive
[17:18] <kingtaco|work> so it's more of a hypothetical
[17:19] <vapier> anyone want to pursue this further ?  otherwise we'll stick with the status quo
[17:19] <Kugelfang> robbat2: what about a readonly maildir?
[17:19] <robbat2> i have a -core archive that is complete as of a few months before I joined Gentoo
[17:20] <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, that still breaks the privateness of the list
[17:20] <kingtaco|work> perceived or otherwise
[17:20] <Kugelfang> huh?
[17:20] <vapier> ive been deleting mine so i only go back to late 2005
[17:20] <Kugelfang> i mean on dev-only right now
[17:20] <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I know
[17:20] <Uber> i purge mine on a regular basis
[17:21] <robbat2> the problem with that is that it still doesn't help cases where the -core stuff leaks out
[17:21] <wolf31o2|mobile> I mostly purge mine... keep important stuff
[17:21] <vapier> that's unaddressable
[17:21] <vapier> robbat2: i imagine there's people who have more extensive ones if infra lacks it
[17:21] <kingtaco|work> don't use lists for things that need to be private
[17:21] <vapier> robbat2: can we push that on you too to at least look into if not implement ?
[17:21] <kingtaco|work> history has shown us time and time again if there are more than 2 people involved then there will be leaks
[17:21] <robbat2> vapier: it's not the existence of archives, I put a lot of working into building up the private archive I do have of it
[17:22] <robbat2> since I built the archive originally while studying the tree signing issue
[17:22] <kingtaco|work> my first core message is from 7/28/03
[17:23] <vapier> i think that's about all the topics i have ... unless we want to open the floor for qa/metastructure talks
[17:23] <kingtaco|work> then nothing until 11/18/04
[17:23] <robbat2> that's it
[17:23] <robbat2> and I have to leave in 2 minutes
[17:24] <vapier> k k
[17:24] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council -m]
[17:25] <vapier> on the topic of nattfodd's metastructure proposal, i dont think it was a proper solution for any issues he proposed it'd solve
[17:25] <Kugelfang> speak now or remain silent forever!
[17:25] <robbat2> i'm leaving now
[17:25] <robbat2> thanks guys
[17:25] <vapier> and in the process cause more issues that Gentoo generally doesnt want to address (split trees and such)
[17:26] --- robbat2 is now known as robbat2|na
[17:26] <kingtaco|work> vapier, I don't think there is anything positive in that proposal
[17:26] <Uber> i read it seems to divide up more, which is bad imo
[17:26] <amne> btw, i'm here now, sorry for being late
[17:27] <marienz> (floor is open now, right?)
[17:27] <eroyf> looks like it
[17:27] <marienz> (just checking you didn't go unmoderated and then brought up a point you forgot)
[17:28] <vapier> we're not voting on metastructure
[17:28] <vapier> open discussion
[17:28] <marienz> think it's a bit of a hybrid of mainly massive tree management/infrastructure changes and organizational changes that aren't *that* far from where we are now.
[17:28] <Jokey> imho he's proposing something debian did in the past and lead to their current situation
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[17:28] <Kugelfang> i don't consider the fragmentation of gentoo a good plan
[17:28] <Kugelfang> that's about all i will comment on it :-)
[17:28] <Jokey> neither do I
[17:28] <marienz> having somewhat autonomous projects may be worthwhile but splitting up the tree in the process seems like a bad idea to me.
[17:29] <Jokey> the "you fetch one and get all" principle is one big plus point for gentoo
[17:29] * beandog agrees with vapier
[17:29] <marienz> both because it's inconvenient from an end user pov and because the infra changes required are pretty massive.
[17:29] <marienz> (I mean we still haven't moved from cvs to svn or git or something at all yet, and this is a considerably bigger change than that...)
[17:29] <beandog> if the workload to dev ratio is too high, then get rid of some of the workload.
[17:32] <marienz> also re: splitting the -dev list into -dev and -dev-announce: I think some devs not reading -dev at all is a reason for that split, not against it.
[17:33] <marienz> if there is a separate -announce list those devs may start reading that list again, which would be good imho
[17:33] <vapier> we didnt say that was a reason against it
[17:33] <jmbsvicetto> marienz: agreed
[17:33] <marienz> I agree entirely to delay the decision and see if the proctors project can change the atmosphere on -dev though.
[17:33] <wolf31o2|mobile> beandog: IMO, the workload to dev ratio isn't high... the workload to active dev ratio is, maybe... though I'd say the solution is more people that are willing to do a *ton* of work, versus more people maintaining a very tiny number of packages
[17:34] <jmbsvicetto> I think there's also another point, people not reading -dev are actually violating gentoo policy!
[17:34] <beandog> yah
[17:34] <jmbsvicetto> The devmanual states that all gentoo devs *must* follow -dev
[17:34] <beandog> follow or subscribe?
[17:34] <jmbsvicetto> beandog: well subscribe, but I would say that also implies knowing what's going on
[17:34] <beandog> nope, no implications! :)
[17:34] <jmbsvicetto> hehe
[17:35] <beandog> wolf31o2|mobile: although Id settle for more people willing to do a moderate amount of work versus none.
[17:35] <wolf31o2|mobile> beandog: agreed
[17:35] <beandog> My point though was that cutting out cruft might make the workload less.  amd64 for instance  has been stagnant forever, but nobody wants to jump on until its gotten back to managable level.
[17:36] <kingtaco|work> careful there
[17:36] <beandog> my idea would be to kick off the cruft that has no dependencies itself, and isn't maintained and/or used
[17:36] <beandog> kingtaco|work: speaking on terms of stable bugs, primarily.
[17:36] * beandog clarifies
[17:37] <beandog> we'd need gentoo-stats though before we have a good idea of what's used, what's not ... so .. yah.
[17:37] <kingtaco|work> have you talked to genone?
[17:37] <beandog> not recently
[17:37] <kingtaco|work> iirc he did some stats project for last years SoC
[17:38] <vapier> he did ... it's in svn
[17:38] <christel> he still occasionally works on it, i dont think its completed fully as of yet
[17:38] <vapier> sad that we still havent seen deployment of anything though
[17:39] * beandog nods
[17:40] <welp> what?!
[17:40] <welp> i'm violating gentoo policy because i don't read -dev?
[17:40] <welp> uh
[17:40] * welp shuts up
[17:42] * jmbsvicetto covers welp with red tape
[17:42] <solar> vapier: I mailed you a qstats.c before.
[17:42] <wolf31o2|mobile> dev really is required reading... it really sucks that so many people don't read it
[17:42] <wolf31o2|mobile> of course, we might change that if we manage to get the signal/noise ratio improved
[17:42] <marienz> it's too highvolume for me to actually fully read each and every mail
[17:43] <marienz> I don't ignore whole threads but I sort of speedread some of them.
[17:43] * kloeri all mail on -dev and -core
[17:43] <kloeri> I do understand that it can be hard to keep up with the volume however
[17:43] <wolf31o2|mobile> well, at least reading the first email of a thread is usually good enough to determine if it is something you'll need to follow... so long as people quit hijacking threads for new ideas
[17:43] <wolf31o2|mobile> heh
[17:44] <wolf31o2|mobile> yeah... I get about 3,000 emails a day on my g.o account, at last count
[17:44] <jmbsvicetto> ouch
[17:44] <wolf31o2|mobile> luckily, bunches of that is spam and tons of it is the same messages, due to being on arch teams
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[17:45] <vapier> marienz: well, i'm not so sure
[17:45] <vapier> for any e-mail client that does threading
[17:46] <vapier> if you snipe the first few e-mails in a thread, that covers you for most stuff i think
[17:46] <beandog> I just read it in knode now, through gmane.
[17:46] <vapier> i'm outs
[17:46] <marienz> that's what I usually end up doing, skipping most of the rest of the thread unless someone hijacks it :)
[17:47] <amne> speaking of hijacking, anything left the council folks want to talk to me about?
[17:47] <amne> or do you just want me to reword the CoC and then tell everyone you guys did it? :-P
[17:48] <wolf31o2|mobile> amne: we can work on it... feel free to write up any changes and I'll make some suggestions, too... then we can throw it to -dev in a couple weeks (if not sooner)
[17:48] <Uber> nn guys
[17:48] <solar> bye Uber
[17:48] <welp> nn Uber m'dear
[17:48] <Kugelfang> nn Uber , i'm gone to bed now to
[17:48] <Kugelfang> +o
[17:49] <amne> wolf31o2|mobile: by we you mean yourself or the council?
[17:49] <amne> bye Uber + Kugelfang
[17:49] <wolf31o2|mobile> amne: myself... I got the short straw
[17:49] <wolf31o2|mobile> ;]
[17:49] <amne> wolf31o2|mobile: haha. :-P perhaps it's a good idea to add you to the proctors alias then as i usually run stuff through there anyway
[17:50] <amne> wolf31o2|mobile: otherwise i'll end up forgetting to cc: you on the relevant mails
[17:51] <wolf31o2|mobile> anmsure
[17:51] <wolf31o2|mobile> amne: sure
[17:51] <amne> wolf31o2|mobile: good, now we just need to find someone from infra to poke
[17:51] <wolf31o2|mobile> KingTaco: ^^^
[17:52] * amne gets the 10 foot pole
[17:59] <-- TheCoop has quit (Client Quit)
[18:16] <kingtaco|work> eh?
[18:16] <kingtaco|work> just send me an email or file a bug for stuff like that
[18:16] <kingtaco|work> I'm not doing non-emergency stuff at work anymore
[18:18] <amne> kingtaco|work: done