path: root/meeting-logs/20070510.txt

[16:01] * fmccor is here representing Kugelfang
[16:01] * wolf31o2 is mostly here
[16:01] <KingTaco> I'm here
[16:02] <KingTaco> kloeri, robbat2|na SpanKY vapier Uber
[16:02] <vapier> moo moo mr cow
[16:02] <kloeri> hiya all
[16:02] <KingTaco> anyone have the agenda for today?
[16:03] <wolf31o2> that would be nice
[16:03] <vapier> none were posted
[16:03] <Uber> I'm here sort of.
[16:03] <vapier> so i figured we just go over things from last
[16:03] <vapier> unless someone saw something i didnt
[16:03] * KingTaco defers to vapier 
[16:03] <vapier> i meant to post something, but i didnt get a chance ... been busy at work
[16:03] <KingTaco> only new thing I know of is the multiple suffixes stuff
[16:04] <KingTaco> from that adhoc meeting
[16:05] <kloeri> I've been pretty busy as well
[16:05] <Uber> brb 5 mins
[16:06] <vapier> was a log posted from said adhoc meeting ?
[16:06] <vapier> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/48381
[16:07] <KingTaco> I don't recall a log
[16:07] <KingTaco> iirc it was Kugelfang, kloeri and robbat2|na
[16:08] <kloeri> I don't think the log was ever posted, just the notice kugelfang sent to -dev and following discussion
[16:08] <vapier> that'd be useful to have ... i dont think the decision made sense and the logic for banning it didnt cut it for me
[16:08] <kloeri> yup
[16:08] <vapier> but let's start on something simpler first
[16:08] <vapier> anyone voluntering to run this meeting ?
[16:09] <wolf31o2> since Danny isn't here, I say we make Ferris do it
[16:09] <wolf31o2> *grin*
[16:09] <Uber> gets my vote :P
[16:09] --> bazik (n=bazy@gentoo/developer/bazik) has joined #gentoo-council
[16:09] <vapier> fmccor: you want to take it ?
[16:09] <kloeri> heh
[16:09] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council +m]
[16:10] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council +v fmccor]
[16:10] --- vapier sets modes [#gentoo-council +v fmccor|home]
[16:10] <vapier> help if he could speak huh :)
[16:10] <wolf31o2> guess not... ok... how about I do it
[16:10] <fmccor> :)
[16:11] <wolf31o2> now I just have to find last month's
[16:11] <vapier> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20070412-summary.txt
[16:11] <wolf31o2> ok... let's go over that stuff, then tove reminded me that we have grobian's keywording glep
[16:11] <wolf31o2> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/48017
[16:12] <vapier> you get your docs merged ?
[16:12] <kloeri> k, the log from that impromptu meeting is available at http://dev.gentoo.org/~kloeri/multiple_suffix.log now
[16:12] <wolf31o2> so... let's start with the old stuff...
[16:12] <wolf31o2> vapier: thought robin was taking care of the actual commits
[16:13] <wolf31o2> crap
[16:13] <wolf31o2> it was me
[16:13] <wolf31o2> I apologize
[16:13] <wolf31o2> I guess that makes it a no.  I didn't.
[16:14] <wolf31o2> did we ever decide where exactly they were to go?
[16:14] <kloeri> my spf doc is all xml'ed up and available on infrastructure.g.o
[16:14] <kloeri> have been for a while now
[16:14] <vapier> under the infra project
[16:14] <vapier> since they manage the mail
[16:15] <wolf31o2> yes, but were we just putting them up as-is or were we adding it into another doc?
[16:16] <vapier> for now, as is
[16:16] <wolf31o2> k
[16:16] <vapier> let em be folded back as infra deems they care enough to do so
[16:17] <wolf31o2> done, then... heh
[16:17] <KingTaco> what doc is this?
[16:18] <vapier> mail server docs
[16:18] <vapier> spf and reply to
[16:18] <wolf31o2> ok... everything is committed
[16:18] <KingTaco> I thought robbat2 put those up somewhere
[16:18] <KingTaco> we're all good right?
[16:18] <wolf31o2> are now
[16:18] <KingTaco> ok
[16:18] <-- ian (i=need_hel@gentoo/developer/pdpc.active.ian) has left #gentoo-council
[16:19] <wolf31o2> I think we should file a bug for the trustees
[16:19] <KingTaco> a bug for what purpose?
[16:19] <wolf31o2> for the social contract thing
[16:19] --> rbu (n=rbu@gentoo/developer/rbu) has joined #gentoo-council
[16:19] <g2boojum> I saw the comment in the last summary, but I wasn't sure exactly what was needed.
[16:20] <wolf31o2> basically, the two should be in sync and things should be clarified... I can't comment further since I didn't see what needed to be changed, personally
[16:21] <vapier> sync Social Contract with Gentoo Foundation (external entities)
[16:21] <vapier> the Gentoo Foundation statement has a section about external entities influence
[16:21] <vapier> the Social Contract does not
[16:21] <g2boojum> vapier: Oh, that helps enormously.  Thanks.
[16:22] <vapier> i proposed that we sync the wording from Foundation to Social Contract, but wolf31o2 wanted to clarify the Foundation statement first
[16:22] <vapier> i'm guessing he hasnt had a chance to drop an e-mail to the trustee list, so he'll file a bug instead for tracking
[16:23] <wolf31o2> yeah... it's another of those cases where what was written is so generic it has no real meaning
[16:23] <g2boojum> wolf31o2: Yeah.  Especially since the Foundation _is_ reigned by a company, the Gentoo Foundation, Inc.  In any event, we'll take care of it.  Thanks.
[16:24] <wolf31o2> right
[16:25] <wolf31o2> bug #177966
[16:26] <wolf31o2> ok... about the CoC... I poked amne earlier, but didn't get a response... I think he's away at the moment
[16:27] <wolf31o2> I'm not aware of any actual changes to the document, but do know that the proctors were working on it
[16:27] <vapier> yeah they posted a few status tidbits previously
[16:27] <fmccor> wolf31o2, On the bug, could you please give a reference to the document in question?
[16:27] <kloeri> amne couldn't be around for tonights meeting but they don't have any updates yet
[16:27] <KingTaco> I don't think anything has changed
[16:27] * fmccor is behind here.
[16:27] --> ferringb (n=bharring@c-67-171-130-60.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #gentoo-council
[16:30] <wolf31o2> KingTaco: robbat2|na: any word on a dev-only archive for -core?
[16:30] <KingTaco> wolf31o2, I'm not involved in that
[16:30] <wolf31o2> right, but do you know anything about it?
[16:30] <KingTaco> nope
[16:30] <wolf31o2> k
[16:30] <KingTaco> the people to talk to are probably robbat2|na and solar
[16:30] <wolf31o2> alright...
[16:31] <wolf31o2> also, 2007.0 is out now, so we can get to working on the survey... Robin said he would look at it
[16:31] <wolf31o2> just wanted to note that
[16:32] <wolf31o2> so I guess all that is left is PMS unless someone has something else
[16:32] <Uber> grobians glep is what's left
[16:32] <wolf31o2> right... sorry
[16:33] <wolf31o2> so PMS then the GLEP?
[16:33] <KingTaco> I think ferringb had something too
[16:33] <wolf31o2> ok
[16:33] --- KingTaco sets modes [#gentoo-council +v ferringb]
[16:33] <KingTaco> ferringb, what were you riding me about last week?
[16:33] <wolf31o2> heh
[16:33] <KingTaco> he was
[16:34] * ferringb will get out the sadle again damn it :P
[16:35] <ferringb> KingTaco: multiple suffix; few things... 1) suggestion to block further usage, instead of forcibly punting whats there now for the future... 2) actually discuss it, since right now it's completely blocked
[16:36] <KingTaco> aight
[16:36] <ferringb> opinion on it's a wee bit divided to say the least, but have seen enough weird versions from upstreams that it's useful as a general mechanism- not all permutations necessarily are sane, which is really what the discussion ought be about
[16:36] <KingTaco> anyone disagree with what Kugelfang kloeri and robbat2|na did the other week?
[16:36] <kloeri> the point was to block usage so we could discuss it on -dev instead of tree policy just randomly changing
[16:36] <KingTaco> anyone want to talk about it?
[16:36] <vapier> and the proposal to workaround it by leveraging -r### is plain wrong
[16:36] <fmccor> ++ to that.
[16:36] <wolf31o2> well, there's two things... first, *should* we limit the suffixes, and if so, how...
[16:37] <wolf31o2> so I guess we'll start simple... should we limit the number/usage of multiple suffixes?
[16:37] <vapier> i agree that some combinations are weird and dont generally make sense, but i dont see any real logic as to what should be kept and what should be tossed
[16:37] <kloeri> I'm all for multiple suffixes where it makes sense as long as we actually work that out first
[16:37] <KingTaco> I don't see a valid case for ever having multiple suffixes
[16:38] <vapier> KingTaco: using _p to track upstream date patches against upstream rc/beta/etc...
[16:38] <fmccor> How does what kloeri propose differ from ferringb?
[16:38] --> ahf (n=eroyf@gentoo/developer/paludis.minion.eroyf) has joined #Gentoo-Council
[16:38] <wolf31o2> some upstreams suck... so anything we do without multiple suffixes is diverging from upstream versioning
[16:38] <KingTaco> but it did remind me of an idea I had the other day
[16:38] <KingTaco> I'll talk about it after this
[16:39] <wolf31o2> ok... like I said, let's keep it simple...
[16:39] <vapier> as genone said, there is no technical reason for limiting the combinations
[16:39] <wolf31o2> vote: should we allow multiple suffixes?
[16:39] <vapier> which is true ... if you support one combination of suffixes, you might as well make it completely arbitrary
[16:40] <wolf31o2> I tend to agree that there's no reason to restrict it... the minute we do, somebody will make a version that does something we didn't expect and we're back to where we are now
[16:40] <wolf31o2> and I vote yes, we should allow multiple suffixes
[16:40] <vapier> right, i'm for it
[16:40] * Uber votes yes also
[16:40] <fmccor> I'll vote Kugelfang yes.
[16:40] <KingTaco> if we're going to do multiple suffixes then we need to document the order
[16:40] <wolf31o2> sure
[16:40] <vapier> the order is documented
[16:40] <fmccor> Yes.
[16:40] <kloeri> the thing about restricting it isn't technical but users should be able to look at 5 ebuilds and see what's newest which can get rather complex with multiple suffixes imo
[16:41] <vapier> i dont understand that argument at all
[16:41] <KingTaco> I vote no
[16:41] <wolf31o2> kloeri: robbat2|na: ?
[16:41] <vapier> if a > b > c, then why do you need to document a > a.b > a.c > b
[16:41] <kloeri> I think some cases might make sense but I don't think we should allow arbitrary combinations
[16:41] <wolf31o2> well, I guess it goes in anyway... so now... should we limit what suffix combinations are allowed?
[16:41] <wolf31o2> heh
[16:42] <kloeri> imo we should
[16:43] <vapier> i'm with genone on this ... since there is no technical limitation, imposing our own arbitrary rules on an arbitrary system seems pointless to me
[16:43] <Uber> i'm with vapier, we shouldn't restrict needlessly
[16:43] <wolf31o2> I agree with you/genone... I see no reason to limit it when it isn't a technical limitation we have to worry about
[16:44] <wolf31o2> KingTaco: fmccor: robbat2|na: ?
[16:44] <KingTaco> wolf31o2, I already voted no to multiple suffixes
[16:44] <wolf31o2> ok...
[16:45] <fmccor> Conditional agree.  As someone mentioned, they need to be human-decipherable without too much effort.
[16:45] <fmccor> (Agree with vapier Uber etc)
[16:45] <wolf31o2> ok.. that makes a majority
[16:45] <vapier> so when someone uses a silly suffix, you let them know
[16:45] <KingTaco> fmccor, it's a simple yes/no
[16:46] <vapier> "hey you, stop being stupid"
[16:46] <wolf31o2> exactly
[16:46] <fmccor> Then yes :)
[16:46] <KingTaco> I think that's silly
[16:46] <KingTaco> just inviting flamewars and more infighting
[16:47] <wolf31o2> any more than any other decision we make?
[16:47] <KingTaco> probably not
[16:47] <wolf31o2> no matter what, somebody isn't going to be happy, or else we wouldn't have to discuss/decide on it
[16:47] <wolf31o2> ok... keywording GLEP...
[16:47] <vapier> yeah, we wouldnt need to exist in the first place
[16:47] * fmccor would consider a flamewar over multiple suffixes to be proctor bait.
[16:48] <ferringb> *cough* raised two points above actually :)
[16:48] <vapier> ferringb: got more to add ?
[16:48] <ferringb> 1) what to do with multi-suffix, 2) how to handle such a decision in the future
[16:48] <KingTaco> answer to 2 is -dev
[16:48] <vapier> right
[16:48] <ferringb> moreso, refering to the "outlaw further usage" vs "it has to be cleaned out of the tree now"
[16:48] <vapier> multi-suffix predates pms
[16:48] <wolf31o2> ferringb: ehh.. we said multi-suffix is allowed... meaning it isn't blocked anymore
[16:49] <vapier> so if you have something that doesnt exist in portage now and requires a change in pms -> gentoo-dev
[16:49] <ferringb> wolf31o2: again, difference between blocked for further usage, and making people change their versioning scheme for a 2 week window
[16:49] <kloeri> that's actually my biggest complaint about the multiple suffix stuff that tree policy was just changed with no -dev discussion at all - no discussion I'm aware of at least
[16:49] <KingTaco> kloeri, why did you vote for it then?
[16:50] <KingTaco> at that meeting
[16:50] <kloeri> KingTaco: I'm talking about allowing it in the first place without any discussion
[16:50] <wolf31o2> ferringb: what exactly do you want us to discuss... we reversed the previous decision and allowed it... I'm not following what you want
[16:50] <ferringb> wolf31o2: basically asking that in the future, when putting the breaks on something like this, block rather then punt while waiting for a full decision.
[16:50] <kloeri> we blocked it to have that discussion
[16:50] <ferringb> punted
[16:50] <vapier> kloeri: it was added by any other means; feature request long ago in bug tracker when portage was the only real solution
[16:50] <vapier> so complaining about a breakage in policy when a policy didnt exist is wrong
[16:50] <ferringb> look at the original email, and the lack of multi-suffix in the tree now- it's usage was outlawed and folks had to change over right then/there
[16:50] <wolf31o2> ferringb: ahh... ok... so nothing to do with this decision, but rather future ones...
[16:50] <ferringb> yep
[16:51] <kloeri> vapier: yes but we tree policy changes should be discussed on -dev ML imo
[16:51] <wolf31o2> I see no problem with not requiring things be punted... we probably should have done that anyway...
[16:51] <kloeri> and it's always been that way
[16:51] <vapier> breakage has historically been discussed, not new features
[16:51] <vapier> new features have been generally filed in bugzilla and then implemented as portage devs seen fit
[16:52] <kloeri> in that case I want portage commit access so I can make some new features without discussing it :)
[16:52] <ferringb> features != ebuild support changes :)
[16:52] <ferringb> (might want to be specific there)
[16:52] <vapier> just because you're not watching the portage alias and seeing the discussion doesnt mean it didnt happen :P
[16:52] <kloeri> ok, so the few devs watching the portage alias decides tree policy?
[16:52] <vapier> ferringb: where do you draw the line ?  FEATURES ? RESTRICT ? USE ?
[16:53] <vapier> kloeri: the guys maintaining portage were deciding portage policy
[16:53] <vapier> that's how it has always been
[16:53] <vapier> you cant apply current view of the Gentoo world retroactively and take offense
[16:54] <kloeri> important policy changes (and I count multiple suffixes as important) should be discussed on -dev imo
[16:54] <wolf31o2> ok... I've got to run... on the GLEP, I totally agree with it
[16:54] <kloeri> we've always required important policy changes to be discussed
[16:54] <ferringb> vapier: just pointing out that misc. portage enhancements just affect that manager, not the others
[16:55] <vapier> ferringb: this change was made pre-others
[16:55] <ferringb> vapier: well aware; was just correcting terms kloeri was using is all :)
[16:55] <vapier> so again, you cant take the current state of how things are handled and apply it retroactively
[16:55] <wolf31o2> the GLEP reverses GLEP 22 and actually changes the keywording to match current practice, which I think is a good idea... and that's all I have time for, folks...
[16:56] <kloeri> ok, I give up on this as nobody seems to agree that it should have been discussed
[16:57] <wolf31o2> no, it definitely should have been discussed before being put in the tree, but not before it was put into portage
[16:57] <wolf31o2> that make sense?
[16:57] <vapier> it's a moot point
[16:57] <vapier> we've decided going forward
[16:57] <kloeri> wolf31o2: that's all I want
[16:57] <wolf31o2> right
[16:57] <wolf31o2> so glep
[16:57] <wolf31o2> heh
[16:58] <vapier> it doesnt account for kbsd
[16:58] <vapier> but do we care
[16:58] <wolf31o2> it doesn't explicitly list everything, just examples
[16:58] <fmccor> How does it not?
[16:59] <fmccor> (Like wolf31o2 said)
[16:59] <vapier> it doesnt account in the same way as the old glep
[16:59] <vapier> kbsd is half way between "x86" and "x86-fbsd"
[16:59] <KingTaco> I don't like it at all
[17:00] <fmccor> And?
[17:00] <KingTaco> it creates confusion and work for almost all of the ebuild maintainers while only giving benefit to fringe arches
[17:00] <Uber> vapier: isn't that x86-kbsd ?
[17:00] <wolf31o2> KingTaco: huh? go read it again... -linux is implied if missing
[17:01] <Uber> right, it just ratifies what we're currently doing
[17:01] <wolf31o2> right... and now I really have to go... doorbell
[17:01] <KingTaco> oh, I missed that
[17:01] <wolf31o2> been fun
[17:01] <KingTaco> sure
[17:01] <KingTaco> it's already being done
[17:01] --- robbat2|na is now known as robbat2
[17:01] <fmccor> Uber, that's how I read it, too.
[17:02] <robbat2> arr my head :-( sucky to get a cold now
[17:02] <robbat2> sorry for being an hour late
[17:02] <KingTaco> robbat2, Kugelfang already used that excuse
[17:02] <fmccor> robbat2, It's OK, you got all the action items.
[17:03] <robbat2> lol
[17:03] <wolf31o2> ok... got a free second... yeah, it's already being done... main thing is it reverses glep 22 and applies current practice as policy
[17:04] <KingTaco> I vote yes
[17:04] <fmccor> yes for Kugelfang
[17:04] <wolf31o2> yes
[17:04] <Uber> yes
[17:04] <robbat2> this is grobian's glep? yes on that from me
[17:04] <Uber> robbat2: yes, his glep
[17:06] <kloeri> yes
[17:07] <Uber> vapier?
[17:08] <-- Jokey has quit (Client Quit)
[17:09] <Uber> well, it's got enough votes anyway
[17:10] <Uber> so that's it then? the chair (wolf31o2) has gone, so meeting closed?
[17:10] <KingTaco> heh
[17:10] <KingTaco> nope
[17:10] <KingTaco> vapier had something about PMS
[17:11] <fmccor> Not if he's not here, he doesn't. :)
[17:11] <kloeri> heh
[17:11] <KingTaco> ok....
[17:11] <KingTaco> anything else?
[17:12] <fmccor> Thanks to the PMS authors for a splendid job?
[17:12] <KingTaco> hahah
[17:12] <ferringb> PMS vcs
[17:13] <ferringb> still was up in the air from last time around
[17:13] * KingTaco points to robbat2 
[17:13] * Uber is away for 30 mins or so
[17:14] <robbat2> ciaranm seemed to want to reject anything other than his own SVN
[17:14] <KingTaco> fuck ciaranm
[17:14] <robbat2> if he's altered his position since then, there's a git repo waiting on stork
[17:14] <robbat2> i just need to hook up whoever's going to be the main person handling it if we are doing an LKML model
[17:15] <robbat2> or multiple people if desired
[17:15] <KingTaco> supposedly that's spb
[17:16] <ferringb> also... EAPI1, might want to figure out how that'll be managed.  basically, if it's ad hoc, doc writers get to force the format (sane or otherwise manager wise), potentially desired, potentially not
[17:17] <ferringb> mainly pointing it out since discussion of each tidbit would be wise- pythons pep approach for example would work well once EAPI=0 is locked down imo
[17:17] <ferringb> either way, ad hoc sucks. :)
[17:17] <vapier> sorry
[17:17] <vapier> work IRQ
[17:18] <vapier> i think the PMS state is still broken
[17:18] <vapier> i wont be happy until it's been moved to proper Gentoo hosting with proper teams behind it
[17:19] <vapier> i can let it sit until next meeting since people have taken off
[17:19] <robbat2> vapier, see above, i've got a git repo on stork now, just need to give people access to it once they agree on the commit model
[17:19] <robbat2> if they're all up with spb being the person to accept commits, then i'll give him write access when he's around, and read for everybody else
[17:21] <fmccor> No objection that I can think of.
[17:21] <ferringb> robbat2: seems moot dependant on how the EAPI discussions from above are managed frankly; if it's ad hoc, means spb/whoever controls that repo controls the format
[17:21] <vapier> other than git is a lame solution, it does satisfy my current requirements
[17:21] <KingTaco> robbat2, I don't think that'll satisfy vapier
[17:21] <kloeri> no objection from me
[17:21] <KingTaco> doesn't sit well with me either
[17:22] <vapier> the latex format really makes PMS unaccessible for many to contribute to
[17:22] <robbat2> KingTaco, which, git or ferringb's problem?
[17:22] <KingTaco> robbat2, 1 rw * ro
[17:22] <vapier> unfortunately that's the only way git will actually work here
[17:22] <KingTaco> I *love* latex, but if it's going to be a gentoo thing, it should be xml like everything else
[17:22] <vapier> grafting a dscm solution into a scm solution
[17:23] <KingTaco> we made a mistake with the devmanual
[17:23] <robbat2> no, it can work for $N rw * ro too
[17:23] <vapier> who was working on xmlifying it ?
[17:23] <KingTaco> dunno
[17:23] <KingTaco> I don't think it ever got farther than chitchat
[17:24] <fmccor> Does it matter until it's final?
[17:24] <KingTaco> yes
[17:24] <KingTaco> wait
[17:24] <KingTaco> fmccor, what are you refering to?
[17:25] <fmccor> latex --> xml
[17:25] <KingTaco> ah
[17:25] <KingTaco> ignore my yes
[17:25] <fmccor> With latex, I can actually work with the document.
[17:25] <vapier> like everything else, you can say "it'll be done later" but it wont be :p
[17:25] <KingTaco> I agree with vapier
[17:26] <fmccor> Actually, that's a test of whether it matters, too. :)
[17:26] <KingTaco> *shrug*
[17:26] <vapier> depends on who you ask
[17:27] <KingTaco> I don't want to have to host more special content
[17:27] <vapier> i think KingTaco has a point with the "Gentoo has settled on xml as a standard for documentation"
[17:27] <KingTaco> xml is easy as infra can push it to the www nodes
[17:27] <KingTaco> it can also be branded the same way most of our other content is
[17:28] <fmccor> I don't have an opinion one way or the other --- my question should be read exactly as I wrote it, and I think the answer was "yes"
[17:29] <KingTaco> the answer is yes
[17:29] <KingTaco> if you expect the majority of gentoo people to contribute
[17:29] <KingTaco> most of us know gentoo xml
[17:29] <KingTaco> the same statement can not be made about latex
[17:29] <robbat2> weird observation on the site that had the PMS SVN - a bunch of revisions are missing now - i pulled the git when it was r164, but now the SVN only goes to r129
[17:29] <kloeri> you could also say that lots of ebuilds devs hate xml though.. :p
[17:30] <vapier> robbat2: yes, that was a pretty big concern i had as well
[17:30] <KingTaco> robbat2, either someone got pissy or svn broke for them too
[17:30] <KingTaco> I've had problems with svn like that at work
[17:30] <vapier> btw is this meeting offically over or what ? :)
[17:31] <KingTaco> vapier, PMS was your topic
[17:32] <vapier> i got the feeling that people had peaced out and PMS was happening post
[17:32] <KingTaco> we can table it
[17:32] <vapier> i think that's best
[17:32] <KingTaco> I don't think anything is going to get done today
[17:32] <KingTaco> ok
[17:32] <KingTaco> any thing else?
[17:32] <KingTaco> speak no or wait 30 days
[17:32] <vapier> i dont believe so
[17:32] <KingTaco> going
[17:32] <KingTaco> going
[17:32] <KingTaco> gone
[17:33] --- KingTaco sets modes [#gentoo-council -m]
[17:33] <fmccor> KingTaco, I thought everyone spoke latex. :)
[17:33] <KingTaco> I wish
[17:33] <ahf> latex is neat
[17:34] <welp> but gentoo's official docs are all in xml
[17:35] <welp> (lets convert all of gentoo's docs to latex! ;))
[17:35] <ahf> you're saying that guidexml is neat?
[17:35] <welp> no
[17:35] <ahf> good.
[17:35] <welp> i never said that, or even implied it...
[17:36] <ahf> thus people has to use something that they don't like, just because everyone else is using it?
[17:36] <dostrow> ahf: the answer to that is yes
[17:36] <vapier> wtf is ahf ?
[17:37] <ahf> eroyf.
[17:37] <vapier> dont be a tool
[17:37] <vapier> stay in school
[17:37] <ahf> sorry, on my workstation
[17:37] <vapier> and shut your word hole
[17:37] <ahf> okdad.
[17:37] <vapier> the usefulness of guidexml has been discussed on the gentoo-dev mailing list
[17:37] <vapier> yes, it's xml ... yes, many people think xml is the devil
[17:38] <ahf> and developers are enforced to write every technical document in it?
[17:38] <ahf> forced*
[17:38] <vapier> however it's done us a huge service
[17:38] <ahf> indeed it has
[17:38] <ahf> for simple pages
[17:38] <ahf> i agree on that
[17:38] <vapier> ahf: if you want to write your own technical document for your own stuff, have at it
[17:38] <vapier> Gentoo wide things there's a standard
[17:38] <KingTaco> dont ask infra to host it
[17:38] <ahf> but if it has to be official gentoo documentation it has to be guidexml?
[17:39] <vapier> i'm not making an argument saying PMS needs to be converted to guidexml right now
[17:39] <vapier> i'm saying that it has to be seriously considered and have a good reason for it to not be done
[17:39] <ahf> no. why not finish it then see if you accept it at all
[17:39] <vapier> PMS isnt some random Gentoo document
[17:39] <ahf> then start the converting job if you have to
[17:39] <ahf> i know that.
[17:39] <welp> fewl
[17:39] <vapier> if i wasnt planning on accepting it, i would have punted spb already
[17:40] <ahf> nod
[17:40] <ahf> i actually need to talk to you about something else but let's take that in query
[17:40] <vapier> that's what she said
[17:41] <ahf> i'll be her for today
[17:41] <vapier> hawt
[17:41] <ahf> read your query god dammit!
[17:41] <ahf> stop yapping
[17:42] <dostrow> ahf: YAP! YAP! YAP!
[17:43] <ahf> *meh*
[17:43] <KingTaco> dostrow, how big is that TV you brought to scale?
[17:43] <dostrow> 32"
[17:43] <KingTaco> bah
[17:43] <robbat2> fyi, i shot ciaranm an email to ask if his SVN broken
[17:43] <dostrow> KingTaco: por que?
[17:43] <KingTaco> I just got mine (32") and it isn't as big as I remember
[17:44] <dostrow> aha
[17:44] <ahf> it's not his asfaik
[17:44] <zlin> robbat2: I think it moved
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[17:44] <robbat2> zlin, no, that repo had r164 before, and now it only has r129
[17:45] <ferringb> diff'ed them?
[17:45] <ahf> i think they moved server
[17:45] * ferringb just assumed that when svn broke they cut off his access to be annoying :)
[17:45] <ahf> i had to change planetpaludis a lot of times and i think they're on the same server
[17:46] <robbat2> ahf, got a newer URL then?
[17:46] <kloeri> vapier: btw, I've set you up on this hot new alpha box contingent on you helping with some binutils problems :p
[17:46] <ahf> i don't know
[17:46] <ahf> haven't followed pms discussion lately
[17:46] <zlin> http://svn.repogirl.net/pms
[17:47] <ahf> oh, it's on repogirl now
[17:47] <ahf> i didn't know that.
[17:47] <robbat2> tjat
[17:47] <robbat2> that is still r164 that I have already
[17:47] <robbat2> unless they re-did some commits, i'll check
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[17:50] <robbat2> nope, it matches my existing r164, last commit 2007-04-17 16:29:24 -0700
[17:50] <zlin> I don't think there have been any commits after that
[17:51] <ferringb> robbat2: curious, have you already converted the data into git?
[17:51] <ferringb> just wondering from a backup standpoint
[17:52] <robbat2> yes I have
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[17:52] --- KingTaco sets modes [#gentoo-council -vvo fmccor|home ferringb fmccor]
[17:52] <robbat2> that's why I had an existing r164 to compare repogirl against :-)
[17:52] --- KingTaco sets modes [#gentoo-council -v fmccor]
[17:53] --- robbat2 has changed the topic to: Next meeting June 14th, 2000UTC (1600EDT)
[18:01] <fmccor|home> Hmph.  Back to commoner status. :)
[18:12] <KingTaco> fmccor|home, sorry, you only get to play god for an hour
[18:12] <KingTaco> :p
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[19:13] <jmbsvicetto> fmccor|home: You don't even get to keep the silly hat ;)
[19:15] * Uber gives fmccor|home a very very silly hat :P
[19:16] <kloeri> Uber: I've hopefully fixed your *bsd linking problem in latest python-2.5.1-r1 btw
[19:17] <Uber> kloeri: huh, it was already fixed I thought? export LDFLAGS="-L." ?
[19:17] <kloeri> LDFLAGS="-L." wasn't in before -r1
[19:18] <kloeri> hmm, looks like it was
[19:18] <Uber> darn, I'm sure I added it to 2.5
[19:18] <Uber> darn, I'm sure I added it to 2.5.1
[19:18] <Uber> heh
[19:19] <kloeri> yeah, I'm just confused about the thousand python updates the last few days I guess
[19:20] <ferringb> kloeri: thanks btw, mainly didn't want it spreading via 07.1 unstable installs :)
[19:20] <Uber> kloeri: drink more coffee!
[19:20] <kloeri> Uber: good idea :)
[19:21] <Uber> kloeri: and spread the updates around instead of doing 6 months worth of fixes in a few days ;)
[19:21] <Uber> i bug you less then too - bonus!
[19:21] <kloeri> yeah well, find somebody else to do the alpha and ia64 releases then
[19:21] <ferringb> or find someone to do python :)
[19:22] <kloeri> and as an added bonus find a new devrel lead too :p
[19:22] <kloeri> in fact, find somebody to do all my work while you're at it :)
[19:23] <ferringb> kloeri: who is active in the python herd these days btw?
[19:23] <ferringb> you/dev-zero seem to be the two not derailed by rl atm
[19:23] <kloeri> yup
[19:23] <ferringb> exempting marienz, who else has on occasion shown signs of life?
[19:23] <kloeri> lucass and pythonhead are also somewhat active
[19:24] <ferringb> afaik, they're just python pkgs rather then the toolchain bits however, right?
[19:24] <kloeri> liquidx is busy with his phd or whatever it is he's doing
[19:24] <kloeri> yes
[19:24] <kloeri> I'm doing the core python stuff
[19:24] <ferringb> phd?
[19:24] <Uber> see, you do too much
[19:25] <ferringb> assumed he was just off sculpting a replica of devils peak out of potatoes
[19:25] <kloeri> Uber: really? hadn't noticed :)
[19:25] <Uber> :P
[19:26] <Uber> seriously, pass some crap onto other people
[19:26] <ferringb> kloeri: whats the usual flow for core python pkgs?
[19:26] <ferringb> bursty, sporadic, etc?
[19:26] <Uber> 6 monthly
[19:26] <kloeri> bursty as long as it depends on me
[19:27] * Uber ducks
[19:27] <kloeri> heh
[19:27] <kloeri> I tend to take care of devrel/council and related stuff on a more or less daily basis
[19:28] <KingTaco> it's a daily job
[19:28] <kloeri> and then do burst of alpha/ia64/mips/python/$other activity
[19:28] <ferringb> kloeri: asking about if someone was doing just that
[19:28] <ferringb> generally, upstream is massively farking slow about fixing bugs in my experience
[19:28] <kloeri> yeah, no way to do random bursts of devrel activity except for some of the docs stuff
[19:28] <ferringb> looks of it, aren't diverging too far from their fixes
[19:29] <ferringb> kloeri: that sitedirs patch in 2.5 really needed btw?  already have the env.d addition
[19:30] <kloeri> not sure, there's still a bunch of python work I need to do
[19:30] <kloeri> cleaning out old versions is probably at the top of the list
[19:31] <kloeri> 2.1 and 2.2 have been masked for a very long time so I could just kill those
[19:31] <kloeri> killing 2.3 would also be nice
[19:31] <kloeri> I'll probably see if I can do that around the time I unmask 2.5
[19:31] <ferringb> kloeri: 08_all_crosscompile.patch has tabs/spaces intermixed btw for 2.5.1 patchset
[19:31] <ferringb> last hunk, the 'return' addition
[19:32] <ferringb> killing 2.3 you'll have problems with I suspect
[19:33] <ferringb> 2.2 is getting up there age wise, but lotsa folks still use 2.3
[19:33] <kloeri> haven't looked at kill 2.3 yet but it's on my wishlist
[19:33] <kloeri> 2.2 have been masked forever so I have absolutely no problem killing that
[19:34] <ferringb> an overlay exist for python crap offhand?
[19:34] <ferringb> would shove it there personally
[19:34] <kloeri> # Alastair Tse <liquidx@gentoo.org> (15 Jul 2006)
[19:34] <kloeri> # Python 2.1 and 2.2 have reported vunerabilities. Masked pending
[19:34] <kloeri> # removal, along with net-zope/zope-2.6. (GLSA: 200509-08, 200502-09,
[19:34] <kloeri> # 200510-20)
[19:34] <kloeri> <dev-lang/python-2.3
[19:34] * ferringb nods
[19:34] <kloeri> no
[19:34] <ferringb> mmm.  sources.g.o it is I guess then
[19:34] <kloeri> well, the entire point of killing that crap is to avoid any maintaining
[19:35] <ferringb> basically is unmaintained anyways
[19:35] <ferringb> (upstream specifically)
[19:35] <kloeri> if people want the ebuilds they can grab them from sources.g.o or whatever they want as long as I don't have to ever look at them again :)
[19:35] <ferringb> can't recall the last time I saw a 2.2 minor with bugfixes
[19:35] <kloeri> 2.3 and 2.4 is unmaintained by upstream except for security issues
[19:35] <ferringb> eh, personally I'd rather see >=2.3 since 2.2 -> 2.3 had the mro tweak
[19:35] <ferringb> yep
[19:36] <ferringb> that said, there still are people interested in tweaking 2.4 if needed (it's still heavily used)
[19:36] <ferringb> 2.2 completely lacks that afaik
[19:36] <kloeri> not going to kill 2.4 anytime soon
[19:37] <ferringb> given
[19:37] <kloeri> but given my complete lack of time for maintaining python I'd like to reduce python to only two major version if it can reasonably be done
[19:37] <ferringb> eh... delegate
[19:37] <ferringb> 4, no, 3, dunno :)
[19:38] <kloeri> delegate would be a lot easier if there were actually some people willing to do the work
[19:39] <ferringb> well
[19:39] <ferringb> no offense meant, but that little python mishap of the last few days was enough to get me thinking about it
[19:40] <ferringb> seems I'm semi touchy about the python toolchain.  who would've guessed. :)
[19:40] <kloeri> well, that accident happened after lots of devs had tested the update and hadn't reported any issues
[19:41] <kloeri> can't really avoid something like that completely
[19:41] <ferringb> eh
[19:41] <ferringb> wrote extensions that specifically would've been broke by it, and have cursed in the past about the api macro trick there so...
[19:42] <ferringb> aware of it.  really wish they'd do something there since the trick they're using is rather ugly anyways
[19:42] <kloeri> and? my point is that no matter how much you test package updates you can always break things and not notice it soon enough
[19:44] <ferringb> aware, moreso was commenting that cpy extension authors would know about that one causing hell if they've done gil release at all
[19:44] <kloeri> I'm generally extremely careful with python updates and in this case I asked all archs to test carefully and rekeyword the ebuilds due to the somewhat massive changes I made
[19:44] <ferringb> admittedly corner case- moreso that you have to know the macro trick sucks to see it coming rather then testing for that case
[19:44] <kloeri> well, it could have been a thousand other bugs instead
[19:45] <ferringb> well aware, just was a nasty gotcha is what I'm saying
[19:46] <kloeri> just like so many other possible gotchas that you'll run into from time to time no matter what
[19:46] <ferringb> either way... upshot at least for py3k they're cleaning up the cpy extension writing a bit- mainly looking forward to removal of the -fno-strict-aliasing req
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[05:38] <Kugelfang> fmccor: once again, my thanks
[05:38] <Kugelfang> fmccor: you and council@ got a mail that explains my absence yesterday
[06:51] <fmccor> Kugelfang, You are quite welcome.
[07:06] <Uber> boring! Next excuse should be "kidnapped by nymphomaniacs"
[07:08] <masterdriverz> Uber: excuse? you mean that hasn't happened to you yet?
[07:08] <Uber> no, I'm waiting for the nymphomaniacs to show up :/
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[07:49] <Kugelfang> Uber: :-)
[07:53] <Kugelfang> KingTaco: devmanual is xml
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