path: root/meeting-logs/20090611.txt

--- Log opened Thu Jun 11 00:00:30 2009
01:47 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+b %igli!*@*] by dev-zero
01:48 <@dev-zero> I'm definetely fed up with his repeated trolling
02:04 <@dev-zero> ... and since I told him to control his temper I think it's justified
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07:21 < Polynomial-C> I need more popcorn for all those barren discussion held in here... (*sigh*)
07:22 < Naib> Polynomial-C: iirc Sput has some shares in a big popcorn company, he should be asking for higher yield soon
07:23 < Sput> meh, I already lease most of Iowa, don't tell me I need to invest in Kansas too :/
07:23 < Polynomial-C> Sput, any plans to expand to Europe? :)
07:24 < Sput> meh, we don't grow that much corn :)
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09:32 < fmccor> tanderson, ping when you have a moment.
09:41 <+tanderson> fmccor: I sort of do now
09:41 <+tanderson> Sort of in and out
09:45 < fmccor> tanderson, may I query?
09:45 <+tanderson> yes
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 11 10:24:21 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 11 10:27:36 2009
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10:27 -!- Irssi: #gentoo-council: Total of 66 nicks [8 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 57 normal]
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12:05 < trelane> Cardoe: identify why they're quitting and solve that problem.
12:06 < trelane> tanderson: regarding your note on quoting the council, I will ensure that I quote from the actual council logs in the future.  Please note there was no intent to deceive there, or reword a council vote, merely I chose to use the summary rather than an extensive log, only part of which was essential to my point.
12:07 < musikc> ping dev-zero
12:07 <@Cardoe> trelane: too much time spent babysitting and being forced to read everyone's opinion of every damn thing even though there really should only be a select few that have a say
12:07 <@Cardoe> they present it
12:07 <@Cardoe> filter what's worth hearing
12:07 <@Cardoe> and be done
12:08 < trelane> Cardoe: well, lets fix that problem then.
12:08 < trelane> fixing that sort of, and I cannot overstate how massive it is based on my own experience would do much to make this council, and the next council's life easier
12:09  * trelane figures the word problem should have been included up there someplace (insert it as you see fit)
12:09 <@Cardoe> unfortunately some people don't want to fix it
12:09 < trelane> Cardoe: I'm having the same experience from a Funtoo perspective. The problem persons for me (and probably for you as well) are not even gentoo developers.
12:09 <@Cardoe> and as such the rest of us are punished
12:09 < bonsaikitten> so fix them. with two bricks.
12:10 <@Cardoe> so I will not be running and instead will write code instead of babysit
12:10 < trelane> I understand your frustration, however I have heard nearly the same complaint verbatim from one of the original council members as to the reason why he quit.
12:10 <@Cardoe> trelane: bonsaikitten: feel free to say ciaranm is the problem. however, you guys are probably a bit biased and I will gladly say ciaranm is not the problem.
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12:12 < trelane> It's not just Ciaran.  When I sent my thoughts on the paludis problem to -dev, I mentioned that there were quite a few problems, but that it seemed they centered around Paludis and Exherbo personalities
12:12 < trelane> I absolutely think Ciaran needs to go, and nothing above should be read otherwise.
12:12 <@Cardoe> While he doesn't help the problem and does tend to fan the flames (i.e. a thread goes from 10 posts to 60 posts cause every starts arguing)
12:12 <@Cardoe> But there's other people that are the problem
12:12 < trelane> the problem is the arguments have become religious
12:12 <@Cardoe> The people unqualified to put their two cents in
12:13 < trelane> I agree, but I have to note that Ciaran is a magnet for such things.
12:14 < trelane> the eventual solution is to remove one side of the argument, and the board has already in part done this
12:14 <+tanderson> trelane: I know, just making sure you understand that the summaries are *quite* simplified
12:15 <+tanderson> I didn't view you as twisting the summary ;)
12:15 < trelane> tanderson: thanks, I will absolutely bear that in mind in the future and make sure I cite any specific clarifying statements from the council :)
12:15 < trelane> tanderson: I didn't think you did, but as we're in a text medium I wanted to make sure that you were aware that no malice was intended.
12:15 <+tanderson> yup
12:15 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-b %igli!*@*] by Cardoe
12:16 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: we've in the past decided that any bans need to be brought up to the other council members and e-mailed out the the council@gentoo.org alias
12:16 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: since you didn't do so, I am removing the ban until you discuss it with the rest of us
12:18 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: hey, you don't really think that going through all meeting summaries is a way to document things, do you?
12:19 <@dev-zero> musikc: pong?
12:19 <+tanderson> Cardoe: does it look like you'll be here for the meeting?
12:19 < musikc> dev-zero, i apologize, i need to get something completed at RL work. i shall return in a bit
12:19 <@dev-zero> musikc: no problem
12:22  * tanderson -> softball, back before the council meeting hopefully
12:24 -!- You're now known as tanderson|na
12:25 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: ?
12:26 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: sorry, I didn't find any reference to such a rule
12:27 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: it's how it's always been done.
12:27 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: since we decide everything as a group
12:27 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: never has there been a decision on anything council "owned" by just one council member
12:27 < Philantrop> Cardoe: Was that done when I was banned from here?
12:28 <@Cardoe> Philantrop: yes it was
12:28 < Philantrop> Cardoe: Ah, ok, thanks.
12:28 <@Cardoe> Philantrop: I believe the vote was 4-3
12:28 <@Cardoe> Philantrop: I can look it up if you'd like
12:28 < Philantrop> Cardoe: Doesn't really matter but thanks.
12:29 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: is it documented in a meeting summary?
12:29 < mama> that's about that supposedly nazi response to a nazi blogpost ban?
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12:30 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: It's documented in the council rules
12:30 <@Cardoe> The ones that say we decide by a vote
12:30 < Philantrop> mama: No.
12:31 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: ah, ok
12:31 < mama> I still haven't seen that one discussed and voted.
12:31 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: another issue, btw, did you read my comment to your meeting organization proposal?
12:33 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: on the ML or where?
12:33 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: wrt to igli. bring it to vote and we can make it happen.
12:34 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: however, I think if we +m, it'll be a non-issue
12:36  * Calchan agrees
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12:52 < dleverton> trelane: what you're suggesting is a lot like trying to get rid of racism by banishing all the non-white people
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12:58 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: well, that's fine by me
12:58 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: yes, on the ml
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14:17 < yngwin> dleverton: no, it's about improving the signal-to-noise ratio by removing the greatest source of noise
14:17 < ciaranm> greatest source of noise? bonsaikitten?
14:18 < yngwin> no, you
14:18 < ciaranm> yes, because i produce noise. pms. devmanual. eselect. just noise.
14:19 < scarabeus> please not here
14:20 <@dev-zero> jup
14:20 < ciaranm> i'm sorry, i find yngwin's implications extremely offensive
14:20  * yngwin is already finished feeding the trolls :)
14:21 <@dev-zero> ciaranm: agreed, yes
14:21 < ciaranm> i don't give a crap whether you like me... but suggesting that nothing useful comes from either me or the people certain trolls like to think is my cabal is going a bit far...
14:21 <@dev-zero> yngwin: the problem is that many problems in eapi seem to be easy at first glance but they aren't
14:22 < yngwin> i didnt say that
14:23 <@dev-zero> trelane: the problem of being a council member is that no matter what you do, some people will hate you afterwards
14:24 < dleverton> yngwin: trelane agreed with Cardoe when he said "But there's other people that are the problem", and still claimed that Ciaran should be punished for it
14:24 <@dev-zero> trelane: it's not a general problem of the council that is, but being some kind of lead of something in general
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14:31 <@dev-zero> trelane: but since Gentoo is for nearly everyone a fun project and there are only less masochists around, well, then people leave
14:43 <@Cardoe> what'd I do?
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14:56 <@lu_zero> hi
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15:18 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: was that for me? :)
15:18 <@Cardoe> no
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15:36  * NeddySeagoon puts his copy of glep 55 on a chair at the back and goes to the shop for beer
15:38  * fmccor wonders if NeddySeagoon is treating everyone.
15:39 <@dev-zero> zmedico: around?
15:39 < zmedico> yeah
15:39 <@dev-zero> zmedico: did you have time to work on eapi-3 features?
15:40 < zmedico> not yet, but I've got thistracker bug to track progress: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=273620
15:41 < zmedico> hopefully I'll get to working on it pretty quickly
15:41 < zmedico> I
15:41 < zmedico> I'd like to :)
15:43 <@dev-zero> zmedico: ah, neat, thanks
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15:43 < zmedico> you're welcome
15:43 <@lu_zero> ^^
15:55 <@Cardoe> zmedico: how's it coming?
15:55 < NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I can't carry that much beer and I'm walking
15:56 < zmedico> Cardoe: haven't really started yet but it shouldn't be long once I get rolling
15:57 < zmedico> having that tracker bug, maybe some people will pitch in and help :)
15:58 <@lu_zero> fine
15:58 < zmedico> that guy who filed those bugs has been really helpful
15:58 <@Cardoe> zmedico: cool
15:59 < fmccor> :(
16:00 <@lu_zero> fmccor ?
16:00 <@dertobi123> heya
16:00 <@lu_zero> hi dertobi123
16:00 < fmccor> lu_zero, In response to NeddySeagoon
16:00 <@dertobi123> hi luca :)
16:00 <@Betelgeuse> here
16:00 <+tanderson|na> Cardoe: you're going to be here?
16:01 <@dev-zero> ready?
16:01 <+tanderson|na> I'm here
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16:02 <@dev-zero> good
16:02 -!- Irssi: Topic: -: Next Meeting: June 11 20:00 UTC
16:02 -!- Irssi: Topic: +: Meeting started
16:02 -!- dev-zero changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Meeting started || Agenda is here: http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/council/meeting-agenda-20090611.txt
16:02 <@dertobi123> ulm: around?
16:02 <@ulm> yep
16:02 <@dertobi123> aye
16:02 <@dev-zero> roll call please
16:02 <@dev-zero> here
16:02  * lu_zero is here as well
16:02 <@leio> here
16:02 <@ulm> still here :)
16:02 <@dertobi123> <-
16:02 <@Cardoe> tanderson|na: yeah I'm here.
16:02 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+m] by Cardoe
16:03 <+tanderson|na> Cardoe: k, now I can just idly watch what's going on :P
16:03 -!- You're now known as tanderson
16:03 <@Cardoe> We're all here.
16:03 <@dev-zero> and I assume Betelgeuse is still here
16:03 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: you made the agenda.. call the first item.
16:03 <@dev-zero> good, let's start
16:04 <@dev-zero> EAPI-3 progress
16:04 <@Betelgeuse> \o/
16:04 <@dev-zero> there's no progress so far
16:04 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+v zmedico] by Cardoe
16:04 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+v ciaranm] by Cardoe
16:04 <@dev-zero> but Zac provided a tracker bug
16:04 <@dev-zero> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=273620
16:04 <@Cardoe> any pkgcore people send me a query
16:04 <@dev-zero> progress in portage, that is
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16:05 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: I don't think we agreed on moderation, but it's ok
16:05 <+ciaranm> paludis is good to go whenever
16:05 <@dev-zero> ciaranm: so, next release will contain eapi-3 support?
16:06 <@dev-zero> ciaranm: or are you waiting on portage's implementation of certain things to be compatible?
16:06 <+ciaranm> dev-zero: i'm not putting a release out with eapi 3 stuff enabled until portage is done
16:06 <@Betelgeuse> well you can't claim eapi-3 support before it's approved
16:06 <+tanderson> Weren't we going to wait until portage was done to see if portage would get everything?
16:06 <@Betelgeuse> doubtful we will do that without Portage support but could of course
16:06 <+tanderson> "pending portage support in time" was the phrase iirc
16:07 <+ciaranm> we have eapi 3 support enabled but we've marked the eapi config file for 3 as noinst, so it'll be used for test cases etc but not actually be installed
16:07 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: we had 3 in favor and 2 against. 2 people never commented
16:07 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: oops. sorry 3 vs 3
16:08 <@Cardoe> 1 person never commented
16:08 <@Cardoe> leio
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16:08 <@leio> Maybe it should have been discussed in gentoo-council to keep up during my temporary busier times. I am from the camp to moderate when necessary only
16:09 <@Cardoe> leio: it was discussed on gentoo-council, gentoo-dev and I e-mailed it to the council members individually
16:09 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [-m] by Cardoe
16:09 <@dertobi123> zmedico: so we can expect some progress within the next 2 weeks (for next meeting)? how's your recruit doing?
16:09 <@Cardoe> Well then.. moderation loses.. 4 to 3
16:09 <@Cardoe> Ok. Well we've covered EAPI-3..
16:10 <@Cardoe> Default ACCEPT_LICENSE is the next item on the list.
16:10 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: just a second, please
16:10 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: there's a minor issue concerning implementation of eapi-3
16:10 <@Betelgeuse> Cardoe: I don't remember seeing any individual mails?
16:10 <@dev-zero> which needs coordination of the pm devs
16:11 <@Cardoe> Betelgeuse: it was sent to the council@gentoo.org alias which e-mails each of you guys individually.
16:11 <@leio> for me council alias is much better than individual, ftr
16:11 <@dev-zero> namely the vdb entry for the slot-dep-operators
16:11 <+ciaranm> zmedico: since you're around... what dev-zero is talking about is the implementation of := deps. did you see the stuff about how to implement that for saving to vdb?
16:11 <+zmedico> dertobi123: yeah, I expect to get started on it myself and make some significant progress before the next meeting. not sure about recruits but we'll see.
16:11 <+ciaranm> zmedico: rewriting foo/bar:= to foo/bar:=1 at install time, that is
16:11 <@dertobi123> zmedico: great :)
16:12 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: you said it yourself. Its something for the pm devs to discuss
16:12 <@Cardoe> Not the council
16:12 <@Cardoe> moving on folks
16:12 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: it's something we have to coordinate
16:12 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: We're technical people. Not baby sitters to watch people talk.
16:12 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: make them aware of it is sufficient, yes
16:13 <@Cardoe> They're aware. And they're talking.
16:13 <@Cardoe> Moving on
16:13 <@dev-zero> good, next point
16:13 <+zmedico> ciaranm: I had just assumed that it would collapse to a normal slot dep bug the :=slot seems good
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16:13 <@dev-zero> ACCEPT_LICENSE
16:13 <@Cardoe> dev-zero: please include the proposed the default in the chat log
16:14 <@dev-zero> then I need a sec to dig it out
16:14 <@leio> * -@EULA
16:14 <@dev-zero> jup
16:14 <@dev-zero> that was it
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16:15 <@dev-zero> does someone not want that to be the default?
16:15 <@leio> zmedico: that will work as far as portage is concerned, right?
16:15 -!- WilliamH [n=william@gentoo/developer/williamh] has joined #gentoo-council
16:15 <@ulm> dev-zero: i'm a bit sceptical about the -EULA part
16:15 <+zmedico> leio: yeah, it's a new EAPI and so we can change syntax as necessary
16:15 <@lu_zero> ulm why?
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16:16 <@leio> zmedico: it's what?...
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16:16 <+zmedico> leio: oh, * -@EULA
16:16 <+zmedico> that seems fine
16:16 <@ulm> lu_zero: eulas are not legally binding in most countries, so it's sort of pointless to exclude these packages
16:16 <@ulm> but IANAL
16:16 <+zmedico> leio: just have to make sure the @EULA group is populated
16:17 <@dev-zero> ulm: true, but I'd rather be on the safe side
16:17 <@leio> ok, then I have nothing against it, as long as users can have ACCEPT_LICENSES="*" in their make.conf and have everything accepted
16:17 <@Betelgeuse> ulm: Better to be aware that it's bad upstream stuff.
16:17 <+zmedico> leio: yeah, seems good
16:17 <@lu_zero> we could leave a commented line with * -@EULA
16:17 <@dev-zero> ulm: and as pointed out by some it's questionable how that end-user in EULA should work in the *nix world anyway
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16:18 <@ulm> dev-zero: i don't have a very strong opinion on it
16:18 <@dev-zero> lu_zero: I'd not do that, it's then rather taken as an example
16:19 <@lu_zero> both should fit for me
16:19 <@dev-zero> ok then
16:20 <@dev-zero> decision is then: have ACCEPT_LICENSES="* -@EULA"
16:20 <@dev-zero> is that correct?
16:20 <@leio> yes
16:20 <@lu_zero> yup
16:20 <@dertobi123> yep
16:20 <@dev-zero> yes
16:20 <@ulm> yes
16:20 <@dev-zero> ok, next item
16:20 <@dev-zero> Bash-4 in EAPI-3
16:21 <@dev-zero> some already commented it
16:21 <@dertobi123> simply put no for the reasons stated by several people on -dev
16:21 <@dev-zero> I'd second that
16:21  * lu_zero is against that as well
16:21 <+tanderson> dertobi123: would you state them here for completeness? :)
16:22 <@dertobi123> "I'm against re-opening the feature list for EAPI-3, let's get EAPI-3
16:22 <@dertobi123> finally implemented and put this on the agenda for EAPI-4. I don't see
16:22 <@dertobi123> the pressure to allow bash-4.0 stuff now."
16:22 <@Cardoe> I was already in favor of ACCEPT_LICENSES="* -@EULA" for the record.
16:22 <+tanderson> dertobi123: thanks
16:22 <@Cardoe> I'm against bash-4 in EAPI-3 as well
16:22 <@dev-zero> tanderson: for me it's basically the same reason
16:22 <@Betelgeuse> I am against bash-4.
16:22 <@leio> I'm in favour or re-opening feature list, I'm against bash-4 in EAPI-3
16:23 <@ulm> ^^ same for me
16:23 <@ulm> re-open for zero-cost features
16:23 <@dev-zero> good, since the question was about bash-4 in eapi-3 and re-opening the feature list a requirement I think we have decision
16:24 <@Betelgeuse> Re-open only for features with PMS text and Portage patches submitted.
16:24 <+ciaranm> and this is where decisions go to die
16:24 <@Betelgeuse> But I still don't see the much reason to do that. There's no reason that EAPI 4 will have to take ages.
16:24 <@ulm> Betelgeuse: or already implemented in portage ;)
16:25  * dertobi123 sighs ... not once again, please
16:25 <@dev-zero> ok, next item
16:25 <@leio> anyway, the official request from the council to put on agenda list back in june 1st was
16:25 <@leio> Please vote on:
16:25 <@leio> * Temporary unlocking of list of features of EAPI="3"
16:25 <@leio> * Allowing bash-4.0 features in EAPI="3" ebuilds
16:25 <@leio> * Temporary disallowing of adding bash-4.0 features to ebuilds in
16:25 <@leio>   gentoo-x86 repository until ${TIME:-1 month} has passed since
16:25 <@leio>   stabilization of =app-shells/bash-4.0* on all architectures.
16:26 <@ulm> leio: these are three separate points?
16:26 <@Betelgeuse> I unloacking, no IN EAPI 3, no bash-4.0 in tree at all before council approval.
16:26 <@Betelgeuse> s/I/No/
16:26 <@Cardoe> I'm opened to re-opening EAPI-3 as long as all requests for additions contain documentation patches and Portage patches. Otherwise, no.
16:26 < Arfrever> Maybe minimal supported version of bash shouldn't at all be specified in PMS?
16:26 <@lu_zero> I second Betelgeuse
16:27 <@dev-zero> I'm against reopening and therefore no bash-4 in eapi-3 and therefore no bash-4 in the tree
16:27 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: PMS specifies what ebuilds can expect from the env.
16:27 < Arfrever> There are many ebuilds using += ...
16:27 <@ulm> yes for unlocking, no for bash-4 features in EAPI 3
16:27 <@dertobi123> i second Betelgeuse, too
16:29 <@leio> Cardoe, ulm and leio are in favour of re-opening EAPI-3 (some with conditionals); Betelgeuse, lu_zero, dev-zero and dertobi123 are against re-opening EAPI-3.
16:29 <@ulm> Arfrever: open a bug so they can get fixed
16:29 <@leio> 4 to 3, lets move on
16:29 <@Cardoe> 4 to 3.. done. move on
16:29 <@dev-zero> good
16:29 < Arfrever> Betelgeuse: Anyway, patches for Portage should be sufficient. Only small amount of people understand file format used by PMS sources.
16:30 < Arfrever> ulm: I would rather open a bug for PMS being out-of-date...
16:30 <@lu_zero> Arfrever could work
16:31 <+ciaranm> pms accurately reflects the official decision made concerning bash-3...
16:31 <@Betelgeuse> Should have a progmmatically usable bash parser for repoman.
16:32 <@leio> Arfrever: bash-3.2 and such could be more controversial. bash-4 is pretty clear - it isn't even stable yet, people are saying it only recently still had bugs blocking stabilization and maybe still do, etc
16:32 < Arfrever> leio: bash-4 works very stably (it only lacks stable keywords).
16:33 <@lu_zero> Arfrever does it solve something that makes it a necessity?
16:33 <@leio> I don't particularly agree with this being tied to EAPI's, but EAPI-3 was voted to be still feature-locked, lets move on. Maybe a different discussion approach (untied to EAPI-3) could lead to some interesting discussion
16:33 <@leio> (on the mailing list)
16:33 <@dev-zero> jup, agreed
16:33 < Polynomial-C> The anount of bugs reported to the bash-ml decreased significantly in the last couple of weeks
16:33 <@leio> meanwhile I suggest people interested to push bash-4 stable
16:34 <@Betelgeuse> And they can work on GLEP 55 too.
16:34 < Arfrever> lu_zero: ${variable^^} and associative arrays would allow to solve some problems in some ebuilds maintained by me.
16:34 < igli> ydiw
16:34 <@lu_zero> Arfrever good to know please document it and let's start a discussion in ml =)
16:34 <@ulm> leio: yes, i wouldn't even think about allowing it in the tree before bash-4 is stable on all major archs
16:34 <@leio> Next topic: Define EAPI development/deployment cycles
16:35 <@Betelgeuse> For EAPI there's only one bottleneck atm and it's getting Portage to have code.
16:35 < Arfrever> lu_zero: So I should copy a part of bash-4's ChangeLog/NEWS file?
16:35 <@Betelgeuse> Otherwise it seems to work fine.
16:35 <@dev-zero> Arfrever: no, how it can be used in ebuilds
16:35 <@lu_zero> Arfrever a link probably could fit =)
16:36 <@dertobi123> leio: that's a non-topic for now from my pov. i'd like to see some discussion on-list before we can discuss something in our meeting.
16:36 <@dev-zero> Arfrever: or how you'd use it in your ebuilds
16:37 <@leio> dertobi123: pretty much the same here, just trying to speed things up in the spirit of Cardoe and you getting to sleep and me getting back to doing useful project proposal and code writing :)
16:37 < Arfrever> dev-zero: ${variable^^} and ${variable,,} allow to avoid using  'tr [[:lower:]] [[:upper:]]' / 'tr [[:upper:]] [[:lower:]]'
16:37 <@dev-zero> Arfrever: on ml please
16:37 <@dev-zero> ok, next item
16:37 <@dev-zero> it's not on the agenda, I'm afraid
16:38 <@Cardoe> Here it goes then
16:38 <@Cardoe> igli was banned in this channel by a council member.
16:38 <@Cardoe> user-rel has asked us to review it
16:38 <@lu_zero> why he was banned?
16:38 < Arfrever> dev-zero: So if I provide (in mailing list) examples about using bash-4 features in ebuilds, there will be a chance for repeating voting on this proposition?
16:38 <@Cardoe> so if anyone has any comments on whether he should be banned or not.
16:39 < trelane> (assuming this is based on rules of order I'd like to request a few minutes of the coucil's time if permissible on this issue)
16:39 <@Cardoe> Arfrever: yes.
16:39 <@Betelgeuse> Cardoe: do you have logs?
16:39 <@Cardoe> Betelgeuse: I don't
16:39 <+tanderson> I do.
16:39 <@dev-zero> and I have excerpts
16:39 <@lu_zero> provide them please ^^
16:39 <@dertobi123> ack ...
16:39 <+tanderson> h/o
16:39 <@Cardoe> Also council members should consider +q vs +b
16:40 <@Cardoe> While we wait for the logs...
16:40 <@dev-zero> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/council/igli.txt
16:40 <@lu_zero> I'd also consider having #-council +m while not used
16:41 < igli> hmm
16:41 <@leio> I'd like the channel to stay as a place to freely interact with your elected council members while not in use for other purposes
16:41 <@dev-zero> jup, me too
16:41 <+tanderson> http://dev.gentoo.org/~gentoofan23/%23gentoo-council.06-10.log
16:41 <@Betelgeuse> dev-zero: I don't see the actual ban there.
16:41 <@Cardoe> I'd be against +m while its not used
16:41 <@dertobi123> leio: agreed ...
16:41 <+tanderson> leio: ++
16:41 <@Betelgeuse> tanderson: permissions
16:41 <@dertobi123> Betelgeuse: /me too
16:42 <+tanderson> Betelgeuse: gah
16:42 <@lu_zero> I saw it squatted lots of times
16:42 <@lu_zero> but I didn't care much
16:42 <@leio> The ban happened while igli was not in the channel
16:42 <@lu_zero> tanderson please make it accessible ^^
16:42 < igli> yeah 8 hours later.
16:42 <+tanderson> Betelgeuse: fixed
16:42 <@dev-zero> Betelgeuse: ok, added
16:42 <+tanderson> lu_zero: yeah, irssi likes saving it -rw------- apparently
16:42 <@dertobi123> leio: quite useless ban, then ...
16:43 <@dev-zero> not really, maybe I can explain
16:43 <@dertobi123> you should
16:43 <@dev-zero> good
16:43 < igli> I said an awful lot more than that very partial excerpt
16:43 <@dev-zero> the point is that while discussing stuff he repeatedly insults people (whether willingly or not)
16:43 <@dev-zero> igli: that's true
16:43 <@dev-zero> igli: this is why there's the log from tanderson and the excerpts from me
16:44 <+tanderson> igli: the full log is probably a better indication of what went on :)
16:44 < igli> and others were far more off-topic afaik, tho i have several on /ignore ofc
16:44 < igli> indeed
16:44 < igli> and having this sprung on me doesn't exactly make me feel like there's an impartial process going on, for the record.
16:44 <@dev-zero> the problem is not being off-topic, the problem is that you insult people repeatedly
16:45 <@Cardoe> I'd say this channel should be opened while not used by council meetings. When used by council meetings, anyone that proves themselves distruptful can find themselves on the +q list. I'm against banning the very people we're suppose to work with and decide on issues.
16:45 < igli> I insult a lot less than some others. and only when I am being insulted repeatedly
16:45 <@Betelgeuse> I don't see the council having to be impartial.
16:45 <@dev-zero> and the reason why I banned him while not being around is because he keeps showing on and doing it again and again
16:45 <@Betelgeuse> We are not judges.
16:45 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: fully agree
16:45 <@Betelgeuse> Cardoe: seems fine
16:45 < igli> are you not judging my behaviour atm?
16:45 <@Betelgeuse> dev-zero: As there wasn't anything pressing it would have been prudent to consult with others first.
16:46 <@Betelgeuse> So we don't have to use council meeting time on these types of things.
16:46 <@dev-zero> Betelgeuse: true
16:46 <@dertobi123> Cardoe: agreed
16:46 <@Cardoe> trelane wishes to say something on igli's behalf. So hopefully, he can say his piece and this won't spiral out of control.
16:46 <@dev-zero> Betelgeuse: and I'm sorry for that
16:46 < igli> please note that trelane does not represent me
16:46 <@Cardoe> You know what. Betelgeuse is right.
16:46 <@ulm> Cardoe: i agree too
16:46 <@Cardoe> let's take this to e-mail.
16:46 <@Cardoe> and be done with it.
16:46 <@lu_zero> ok
16:47 <@Cardoe> next item
16:47 < igli> I thought it had been dealt with in #-user-rel <end>
16:47 < trelane> Cardoe: I'm fine with that.  Would you mind submitting my comments as my comments to the -council list then?
16:47 <@Cardoe> trelane: you can e-mail council@gentoo.org if you think it's relevant.
16:47 <@Betelgeuse> Let's just ack that this wasn't handled in the best way and hopefully the parties involved can get the matter solved.
16:47 <@dev-zero> igli: it's still in-progress
16:47 < igli> fine dev-zero, i refer you to what i said in there then.
16:48 <@Betelgeuse> If there's actually something to vote on then we can get back to the issue.
16:49 <@Cardoe> ok. any other topics?
16:49 <@dev-zero> well, next issue would be the EAPI development/deployment cicle
16:49 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: you said you don't want to have it discussed here
16:49 <@dev-zero> dertobi123: you made some good comments already
16:49 <@dev-zero> do we want to discuss it here or not?
16:49 <@dertobi123> 22:36 <@dertobi123> leio: that's a non-topic for now from my pov. i'd like to see some discussion on-list before we can discuss something in our meeting.
16:50 <@dertobi123> it would be useful to discuss this on-list to get it rolling
16:50 <@Betelgeuse> I already said my opinion about EAPI development.
16:50 <@Betelgeuse> As discussing process won't get code to Portage any faster.
16:50 <@leio> Maybe we should select someone to make sure the discussion is actually happening
16:50 <@Betelgeuse> Time better spent coding the actual features.
16:50 <@dertobi123> as for development ciaranm described a quite useful process it seems which we could try for eapi-4
16:50 <@dev-zero> leio: agreed
16:50 <@leio> if there is any to be had
16:50 -!- igli [n=igli@fu/coder/igli] has left #gentoo-council ["it's not the code it's the borked process. *disgusted at the blatant politicking*"]
16:51 <@dev-zero> ^^ no comments
16:51 <+ciaranm> actually... one thing...
16:51 <@leio> eapi-3 process seemed fine to me with two exceptions - implementation time and too many different places things got recorded
16:51 < trelane> dev-zero: I've handled firearms for a long time, I can correctly identify when someone has shot themselves in the foot.
16:51 <@dev-zero> leio: jup, noted
16:51 <@Cardoe> We can give ciaranm's suggestion a go for eapi-4. But otherwise that all depends on the list.
16:51 <+ciaranm> i think we might have to move pms off gentoo infrastructure... so what i said, but github instead of bugzilla?
16:52 <@Cardoe> We keep trying to discuss HOW to do EAPI development.. the issue is writing code.
16:52 <@dertobi123> ciaranm: for what reason?
16:52 <+ciaranm> i suspect most people have accounts on github already, and they do bug tracking now...
16:52 <@Cardoe> discussing and debating everything won't implement code
16:52 <@ulm> ciaranm: why?
16:52 <@leio> ciaranm: What has GIT and github to do with anything of that?
16:52 <+ciaranm> the short story, bug 273759
16:52 -!- The_Paya [n=the_paya@190.189.19.103] has joined #gentoo-council
16:52 < Willikins> ciaranm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/273759 "I should be able to edit PMS bugs"; Gentoo Infrastructure, Other; RESO, NEED; ciaran.mccreesh@googlemail.com:infra-bugs@g.o
16:53 <+ciaranm> the longer version: when we moved to gentoo infra, i was given various assurances by robbat2
16:53 <@ulm> i'm strictly against this, PMS is central to Gentoo and should be hosted on our infrastructure
16:53 <+ciaranm> among those being that i wouldn't have to worry about infra dicking around with permissions, privs etc
16:53 <@dev-zero> ulm: but then all people working on it should have appropriate access
16:53 <+ciaranm> it looks like infra's no longer prepared to stick to that, so rather than get into an argument with them i think it'd be easier if we just moved elsewhere
16:53 <@dertobi123> ulm++ and dev-zero++, too
16:53 <@ulm> dev-zero: that's not a reason to move it away from our infra
16:53 <+tanderson> ciaranm: just wait a bit for infra to sort things out
16:54 <+ciaranm> infra have decided that, contrary to what was promised when we moved to gentoo hardware, they're going to screw us around. i don't have time to deal with that.
16:54 <@leio> I'm not sure ciaranm should have the access that gives him the ability to decide if bugs and PMS requests are valid or not
16:54 <@Betelgeuse> I can switch bugzilla prives if we vote here.
16:54 <@dev-zero> ulm: well, we've always been a project with non-developer contributors, moving the project to a neutral platform would guarantee access for everyone
16:55 <+ciaranm> Betelgeuse: they've already been switched once for that, and they got removed with no-one telling me
16:55 <+ciaranm> Betelgeuse: oi
16:55 <+ciaranm> gah
16:55 <@dev-zero> ulm: but in general I agree with you that PMS is a central project for Gentoo and should be hosted on our infra
16:55 <+ciaranm> Betelgeuse: i'm sceptical about keeping things on gentoo infrastructure if it's just going to lead to this kind of mess again
16:55 <@ulm> dev-zero: the access problems can be sorted out
16:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:55 <@dertobi123> ulm: exactly.
16:55 <@Betelgeuse> ciaranm: Well if an infra member defies a council decision without having a security etc reason then they need a devrel bug filed.
16:55 <@dev-zero> ulm: sure, we should just avoid the bureaucracy needed now
16:55 < reavertm> dev-zero: everyone can clone and send patches already btw
16:56 <@dev-zero> reavertm: yes, I know
16:56 <@lu_zero> still I'm not sure what makes one repo different to another
16:56 <+ciaranm> leio: i already have push access to the pms repo... what's the big deal with bugzilla? not like there's not a reopen button, and the council already came up with a process for what to do if we can't reach agreement on a bug
16:56 < solar> FYI robbat2 is researching how any perms might of changed. KingTaco said at one point there were perms granted but also noted that any bad behaviors or abuse would lead to perm removal. Nobody in infra so far says there have been any removals.
16:57 <+ciaranm> solar: well, at one point i could close pms bugs, and now i can't
16:57 < solar> I don't care about that
16:57 <@ulm> ciaranm: but you still have commit access to the repo, or did this also vanish?
16:57 <@leio> ciaranm: sounds good too if gentoo developers are monitoring pms-bugs@ I guess
16:57 < reavertm> ciaranm: maybe you need to send ebuild quiz :)
16:57 <+ciaranm> ulm: i did a week ago
16:57 <@Cardoe> reavertm: unnecessary
16:57 <+ciaranm> leio: i hope they are...
16:57 < solar> point is you have not shown where perms were granted. And any user claiming I should have more perms than I have now.. Is treated the same way
16:57 <@ulm> Cardoe: and any evidence that you don't anymore?
16:57 <@ulm> sorry
16:58 <@ulm> ciaranm: ^^
16:58 < solar> so why don't you either work with us as requested. Or wait till it's sorted out
16:58 <+ciaranm> ulm: i'm assuming i still have git repo access. it's bugzilla that's the problem.
16:58 <@Betelgeuse> Wasn't this already discussed at some point and someone was supposed to be watching the access for possible misuse?
16:58 <+ciaranm> Betelgeuse: yup
16:58 <+ciaranm> Betelgeuse: and considering the number of people watching the pms alias...
16:59 <+ciaranm> solar: the only question is why permissions that i had mysteriously vanished
16:59 <@Cardoe> ok. this looks like silly politics with someone screwing with ciaranm's access and a non-council issue really. Just fix it and lets move on.
16:59 <@dertobi123> Cardoe++
16:59 <+ciaranm> Cardoe: the "fix it" bug's been closed off without it being fixed
16:59 <@ulm> Cardoe: +1
16:59 < solar> I don't care about that question. that is not what the bug was filed for.
16:59 <@dev-zero> Cardoe: fully agree
16:59 <@Betelgeuse> Ok let's vote on turning on editbugs back on. This means ciaranmn can edit bugs in all products.
16:59 <@Betelgeuse> It will be revoked if misused like usual.
16:59 <@dev-zero> jup
16:59 <@lu_zero> ok
16:59 <@dev-zero> I vote yes
16:59 <@Betelgeuse> We already give editbugs to potential new bug wranglers etc.
16:59 < solar> if they are lost. Then how did that happen
16:59 <@Betelgeuse> I vote yes.
17:00 <@dertobi123> yes too
17:00 <@ulm> yes
17:00 <@Cardoe> Just give him the access.
17:00 < solar> no. You are not going to bypass infra procedures
17:00 <@leio> who's following that mail alias with bugzilla means?
17:00 <@lu_zero> solar which is the procedure?
17:00 <@Betelgeuse> solar: I already have the power to do that as far as I know.
17:00 <@leio> (err, not alias, mail address)
17:00 < solar> what did I say at first? robbat2 is researching it
17:00 <@dev-zero> Betelgeuse: just do it
17:00 < solar> no
17:00 <@Betelgeuse> solar: The standing policy has been to give users who do a lot of bugzilla useage powers.
17:00 <+ciaranm> i had editbugs way before i became a dev, btw
17:00 <+ciaranm> on everything, not just pms stuff
17:02 <@Betelgeuse> solar: If you have some written policy somewhere please post a link.
17:02 <@Betelgeuse> For now editbugs are back. Infra is free to do research on PMS restricted powers of course.
17:02 <+ciaranm> thanks
17:02 <@leio> it seems ciaranm just needs to point infra people to some supposedly already happened decision by council that he should have such access, to solve that bug. Of course another option is to give a new access if desired
17:02 < solar> Betelgeuse: you just abused your perms
17:03 < solar> and you should not of done that. That is not why you had bugzilla perms
17:03 <@Cardoe> Do we have any real topics to discuss anymore?
17:03 <@leio> apparently not, that were on agenda, anyway
17:03 <@dertobi123> as for the eapi-development stuff can we agree on the process described by ciaranm on -dev list?
17:03 <@dev-zero> I'd say so, yes
17:04 <@Betelgeuse> solar: I have been giving possible recruits editbugs for ages with infra blessing.
17:04 <@dertobi123> for eapi-deployment i'll try to keep the discussion going on
17:04 < Arfrever> solar: In which bug did he abuse his permissions?
17:04 <@dev-zero> dertobi123: cool, thanks
17:04 <@Betelgeuse> solar: some issue.
17:04 <@Betelgeuse> s/some/same/
17:04 < solar> Betelgeuse: you oversteped the bounds.
17:04 <@Betelgeuse> solar: If you think so feel free to vote inside infra.
17:04 <+ciaranm> i wasn't aware there were bounds on a council vote
17:04 <@dev-zero> jup, me neither
17:04 <@Betelgeuse> solar: And present a new policy to replace GLEP 39 for developers.
17:05 <@Betelgeuse> Or recruiting.
17:05 < solar> This is not a normal case in any such way
17:05 <@dev-zero> it would be nice to know who removed those perms in the first place without announcement anyway
17:05 <@lu_zero> or why
17:06 <@Betelgeuse> I will find in the logs when this was first discussed.
17:06 <@dev-zero> ok then
17:07 <@Betelgeuse> If I can figure out proper grep terms.
17:07 <@dev-zero> meetings is over
17:07 <@leio> I think solar's point is something along the lines of the latest proven evidence related to this having been the council or devrel decision to revoke ciaranm developer privileges and force-resign
17:08 <+ciaranm> leio: i was given those privs way after that
17:08 <+ciaranm> leio: as you can see by looking at those pms bugs i closed last year
17:08 <@lu_zero> ciaranm and then when they got removed?
17:08 < spatz> solar just wants you to prove that and be done with it
17:08 <@leio> do you remember by whose decision were they given back? Is there a record of it?
17:09 <+ciaranm> lu_zero: sometime after that. i didn't notice for a while since we don't generally close pms things often until new EAPIs come along
17:09 <@leio> I'm not sure I care either way as long as you are being monitored as told, but these things would seem to speed things up, which you seem to wish
17:09 < solar> I wanted to allow Robbat2 to do his research. Now that you went and messed with perms. Timestamps in bugzilla has changed.
17:09 < solar> now I gotta have a BS meeting about if Betelgeuse should be allowed to retain any extra perms in bugzilla
17:09 <@lu_zero> sigh...
17:10 <@leio> ok, then I thought wrong above
17:10 <+ciaranm> leio: unfortunately a lot of it's in private emails, including the part where i was promised that people wouldn't mess around with permissions like this
17:10 <@lu_zero> ciaranm looks like you were expecting that
17:11 <+ciaranm> lu_zero: when we moved, yes, i was expecting certain people in infra to dick around. i was given promises that they wouldn't. unfortunately, i can't provide those emails since they're private.
17:11 <@lu_zero> ciaranm bad =\
17:11 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, there was discussion here before PMS moved
17:11 <@dev-zero> anyway, the decision to give ciaranm back the permissions where backed by the councils decision
17:11 < solar> One thing is for sure. Nobody in infra is going to just randomly remove perms
17:12 <@lu_zero> dev-zero you have the link to the council log about that?
17:12 <@lu_zero> (just for reference)
17:12 <@dev-zero> lu_zero: we just did, above?
17:12 <@dev-zero> lu_zero: I was referring to that
17:12 <@lu_zero> I mean before
17:12 <@Betelgeuse> this is what I found so far bug nothing better yet: <04.05.2009 14:23> < ciaranm> could someone please either tidy up the pms bug list or find out why i'm mysteriously unable to do so yet again?
17:12 <@dev-zero> lu_zero: no, sorry
17:13 < solar> that was not in the agenda, there was an open bug in which a team was doing research.
17:13 -!- The_Paya [n=the_paya@gentoo/developer/thepaya] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:13 < solar> so sorry but you are mostly all in the wrong here
17:13 <@lu_zero> and looks like the time is up ...
17:13 <@dev-zero> jup, I already announced the meeting to be over :)
17:13 < solar> and I hope that our devs vote properly for a better council next time around
17:13 <+ciaranm> *shrug* i don't really mind either way. but if infra decides it's going to ignore the council, i have no objections to moving to github if that'd work for everyone else.
17:13 <@lu_zero> Betelgeuse you used to be less rushy =P
17:14 <@dev-zero> solar: thanks for the flowers then
17:14 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, when did you notice your permissions had changed ?
17:15 <@Betelgeuse> Now let's see if I can search bugzilla for bugs marked as resolved by ciaranm but not reported by him
17:15 <@dev-zero> ok, time's definetely up
17:15 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: few months back
17:15 <@leio> it seems some topic popped up suddenly without it being on the agenda, and it even went as far as to an uninformed quick vote
17:16 <@dev-zero> leio: jup, it did during the eapi devel/deploy topic
17:16 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, so another day or so while -infra search logs is nethier here nor there.
17:16 <@leio> so why did we vote on this uninformed exactly? Something to keep in mind while trying to reform things then
17:17 -!- Irssi: Topic: -: Meeting started | Agenda is here: http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/council/meeting-agenda-20090611.txt
17:17 -!- Irssi: Topic: +: Meeting of June 11 is over | Next Meeting: Thursday June 25 20:00 UTC
17:17 -!- dev-zero changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Meeting of June 11 is over || Next Meeting: Thursday June 25 20:00 UTC
17:17 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: the issue's about whether i have to get involved with the gentoo infra power-play or not. i only agreed to move to gentoo infra because i was assured that i wouldn't have to worry about any of that mess.
17:17 <@Betelgeuse> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_activity.cgi?id=217492
17:17 <@Betelgeuse> This shows ciaranm having them at least a year ago
17:17 <@dev-zero> leio: because there were some people agreeing on that and wanted something to happen so people can continue to work
17:17 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, you don't. but they should be given time to look at logs to see who did what and when
17:18 <@leio> dev-zero: all at the same time as information was trying to be given, yes
17:18 <@dev-zero> leio: it got fast a little, yes
17:18 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: the council already voted to give me editbugs, and infra are blocking it. this is exactly the kind of mess i was assured wouldn't happen.
17:18 <@leio> when did that voting happen, except today?
17:19 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, As solar said, infra are looking into why the perms changed.
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17:21 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: sure. and in the mean time, the council voted to give me editbugs, Betelgeuse gave me editbugs and i don't appear to have editbugs.
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17:21 <@Betelgeuse> heh clicked the wrong place
17:21 <@lu_zero> uff
17:21 <@Betelgeuse> stupid me
17:22 <+ciaranm> ah, ok, thanks
17:22 < trelane> Betelgeuse: remind me to never give you a pistol to shoot :/
17:22 <@lu_zero> ciaranm could you wait a day or two?
17:22 <@Betelgeuse> trelane: I have used a lot of weapons.
17:22 <@Betelgeuse> trelane: Mandatory conscription and all.
17:22 < trelane> Betelgeuse: and the mouse is the only point-and-click interface you have problems with? :)
17:22 < trelane> aah :)
17:23 <+ciaranm> lu_zero: sure
17:23 <@Betelgeuse> Well you can do civil service too but any way.
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17:23 <@Betelgeuse> ciaranm: ok let's wait a couple of days then
17:23 <@lu_zero> so you wouldn't mind if they spend some time sorting out what happened
17:23 <+ciaranm> lu_zero: if they're going to, that's fine. if they're just going to leave it with solar's resolution, then no.
17:24 <@dev-zero> tanderson: still around?
17:24 <@Betelgeuse> trelane: I am in a flu so I just misread the edit* privs.
17:24 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, Solar said it was under investigation ... thats not resolved
17:24 <@Betelgeuse> NeddySeagoon: Then the bug should be open.
17:24 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: solar's closed off the bug too though
17:24 <@leio> Betelgeuse: so the timestamps weren't touched or something?
17:24 < Calchan> ciaranm, you should seriously consider that sometimes shit happens and that not everything is a conspiracy against you
17:24 <@Betelgeuse> leio: Dunno how it works bug I did change other lines.
17:25 <@dev-zero> Calchan: he didn't assume that
17:25 <+ciaranm> Calchan: are we aware of other people's bugzilla privs vanishing?
17:25 <@Betelgeuse> leio: And it's by now changed probably.
17:25 < Calchan> ciaranm, invalid point
17:26 <+ciaranm> Calchan: well, i had privs, and then i didn't, and infra tried to close the bug off without fixing it
17:26 < trelane> Betelgeuse: swine flu? (suddenly wishing linux had anti-virus...)
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17:26 < Calchan> ciaranm, see above
17:26 <+ciaranm> Calchan: i don't really mind either way if that's what infra wants to do, but if they do, i need to find a new home for pms that's acceptable for everyone
17:26 <@dev-zero> Calchan: see the bug
17:26 <@dev-zero> Calchan: the bug got "resolved"
17:27 < Calchan> dev-zero, so what ?
17:27 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, so gibe infra a wee while to find out what happened
17:27 < Calchan> let's cool down
17:27 < NeddySeagoon> give*
17:27 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: infra were trying to close it off without fixing it until the council intervened
17:27 < solar> No
17:27 < spatz> so have an entire council meeting about bugzilla permissions
17:27 <@dev-zero> Calchan: well, the message in the bug was "ciaran provide info why you had that perms anyway" and not "sorry, we're investigating it"
17:27 <@lu_zero> spatz the leftovers
17:28 < solar> anybody that is on #infra should see the chat we were already in the process of having
17:28 <@Betelgeuse> I need to go sleep to get better.
17:28 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, Wait for -infra to find out what happened and why
17:28 <@lu_zero> Betelgeuse take care and rest well
17:28 < Calchan> dev-zero, it's a legitimate request from somebody who obviously didn't know the whole story, does that make it a conspiracy ?
17:28 < Polynomial-C> spatz, the meeting finished already.
17:29 <@dev-zero> Calchan: huh?
17:29 <@dev-zero> Calchan: what request?
17:29 <@leio> dev-zero: maybe that information should be provided then as asked? When I ask users something I often mark the bug NEEDINFO while waiting for an answer (or an answer telling they can't give one)
17:29 < hwoarang> get well soon Betelgeuse
17:29 < spatz> i know that, i was referring to how the meeting was suddenly off the agenda
17:29 < Calchan> dev-zero, request for providing info
17:29 <+tanderson> dev-zero: sorta
17:29 <@dev-zero> Calchan: when the user says "I had foo but then foo vanished"?
17:30 <@dev-zero> Calchan: did you work in support once?
17:30 < NeddySeagoon> dev-zero, we see that on the forums :)
17:30 < Calchan> dev-zero, ah, btw yes
17:30 <@dev-zero> Calchan: you don't ask "why did you have foo in the first place"
17:30 <+ciaranm> hey! it was "I had foo, as you can see from this clear evidence, and now I don't, as I can see from not being able to do blah"
17:30 < yngwin> false analogy
17:30 < solar> You ask such things when somebody was kicked out of gentoo. dunno what 2.5 times
17:31 <@dev-zero> tanderson: you might have to proxy for me next time
17:31 <@dev-zero> solar: it doesn't matter
17:31 < solar> yes it does
17:31 <+tanderson> dev-zero: might have to work that out with Cardoe to see if he's going to be missing
17:31 < solar> it's our job to make sure that we do the right thing.
17:31 < Calchan> dev-zero, cool down, I was just saying that we should give this thing more importance than it deserves, and just work to solve the matter
17:31 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, yep but the reasoning is missing. Thats what infra are looking at.  Then you may get your foo back
17:31 < Calchan> s?should/shouldn't/
17:32 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: only infra have access to that reasoning, afaik
17:32 <@dev-zero> Calchan: I agree, but closing that bug with a pretty arrogant statement is not how things should work
17:32 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: from what i've seen of bugzilla on other sites, there's a log of permission changes but it's only accessible to people with superpowers
17:32 < Calchan> dev-zero, a bitchy dev doesn't a conspiracy make ;o)
17:32 < solar> and bypassing a team which was doing research is somehow the right thing?
17:32 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, Probably.  Are you suggesting there will not be an honest report ?
17:32 <@dev-zero> Calchan: I don't talk about conspiracy
17:33 <+tanderson> just calm down guys, I doubt there's a conspiracy and ciaran will get to do his pms stuff in a day or two
17:33 <+tanderson> It's really not a big deal at all
17:33 < Calchan> dev-zero, you're right, I did, but I guess you know what I meant
17:33  * reavertm agrees
17:33 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: all i really care about is whether i'm going to have to go through this mess all over again in another few months if i don't find a new home for pms
17:33 < solar> tanderson: and you can see from the infra chat that there may be a few ways it could of happened. Including user error
17:33 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: i'd really rather not have to get involved in yet another council / infra power struggle
17:33 <@dev-zero> Calchan: I talk about infra providing a service and guessing from the comments some let their personal feelings come in their usually nearly perfect way of maintaining stuff
17:34 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, how many times have you lost perms since PMS moved to gentoo hardware ?
17:34 <+tanderson> solar: true, thanks. I don't think he's done email addr changes in a while however
17:35 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: once since, and i've also had permissions revoked by infra despite an explicit council order for them not to before we moved pms there, which is why i asked for guarantees before moving pms
17:35 <@dev-zero> Calchan: and we wouldn't have this whole discussion if people would have handled that request with respect
17:35 < Calchan> ciaranm, remember that access to gentoo infra is a privilege, so ask nicely and behave adequately and there's no reason you don't get all the access you require to work on pms
17:35 <+ciaranm> Calchan: i had that access, and it vanished, and infra tried to refuse to give it back
17:36 <+tanderson> bye guys, my garden needs work. But remember, it'll all get sorted out in the end and it'll likely not happen again
17:36 -!- You're now known as tanderson|na
17:36 <+ciaranm> Calchan: which, again, is entirely up to infra, and i'm quite happy to move pms somewhere else that's acceptable to everyone involved if infra decide to do that
17:36 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, so wait for the investigation.  Its no big deal long term.  Nobody is immune for finger trouble, your 'guarantees' won't cover that
17:37 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: now that the investigation is happening, i'm happy. until the council got involved, though, there wasn't an investigation and it was being brushed under the carpet.
17:37 <@leio> oh, btw, apparently PMS is not a draft standard of EAPI-0 or something
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17:37 < Calchan> ciaranm, and you explained your problem and you got you edit privs back (although it's not there technically you got a positive council vote), no reason to make more fuss about it
17:37 < reavertm>  please all stop this soap opera, let infra do their investigation
17:38 <+ciaranm> leio: "or something"? details please?
17:38 < solar> ciaranm: that is not true at all
17:38 <@leio> I believe the requirements listed at http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20080911-summary.txt have not been met
17:38 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm So, let it cool a little.  The only thing I would like to see is a target date for the investigation to complete
17:38 <+ciaranm> leio: er, all of those were met a long time ago
17:39 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: like i said, i'm happy
17:39 <@leio> good, where's the documentation?
17:39 <+ciaranm> in the pms intro
17:39 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, I've never heard you say that before :)
17:39 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: you weren't around in the good old days when i would sing "happy happy joy joy" all the time?
17:40 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, Nope, you had left just before I became a staffer
17:41 <@leio> ok, sounds good. I suggest for the PMS editors to document some of that in the project page as well, or point to the intro for these things
17:41 <+ciaranm> leio: you'll need to find out who has permission to edit the pms page this week for that part
17:41 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: all was sunny and shiny, gentoo made progress, developers got along and bugs got fixed
17:42 <@ulm> ciaranm: every dev can edit it i think
17:42 <@leio> where's the conflict resolution process documented?
17:42 <+ciaranm> leio: credits.tex in pms iirc
17:42 < reavertm> ciaranm: so what happened that it all changed? :)
17:42 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, pretty mucah as happens now but Gentoo has got a lot more complex meanwhile
17:42 <+ciaranm> reavertm: love-sources
17:42 <+ciaranm> reavertm: and then gentoo-alt
17:43 <@leio> no references to "conflict" in pms.html
17:43 < reavertm> you suggested to keep them off-tree or sth?
17:43 <@dev-zero> ciaranm: what had love-sources to do with it?
17:43 < reavertm> probably personal conflicts with maintainers?
17:43 <+ciaranm> leio: there should be a "Reporting Issues" section
17:44 <+ciaranm> dev-zero: seemant decided that we couldn't tell users in #gentoo who were using love-sources to change kernels before moaning that they experienced filesystem corruption etc
17:44 < yngwin> bug 57300
17:44 < Willikins> yngwin: https://bugs.gentoo.org/57300 "Ciaranm: the antagonism continues"; Developer Relations, Default; RESO, FIXE; seemant@g.o:devrel@g.o
17:44 <@leio> ciaranm: ok, thanks. I'll add to my TODO to read through the whole document from top to bottom one day even though not implementing a PM
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17:45 <+ciaranm> leio: oh good. we could use some people doing that.
17:45 <+ciaranm> yngwin: before then even
17:45 <@leio> the TODO list is too long.
17:45 < yngwin> yeah, but thats where its documented
17:45 <+ciaranm> the whole "#gentoo losing all its active ops" thing happened quite a bit before that mess
17:46 <+ciaranm> then there was that whole year-long freeze on recruiting developers thanks to drobbins' lawyer trying to make everyone sign a bit of paper agreeing to turn over their computer to the foundation upon request
17:47 < hwoarang> :/
17:47 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, do you still have a copy of that ?
17:47 <+tanderson|na> dev-zero: I'll talk to cardoe and ask if he is expecting to have problems next meeting. If not, I'll be your proxy
17:47 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: i could probably find one if i could remember where stuff is in gentoo cvs
17:48 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: proj/en/devrel/copyright-assignment.xml iirc
17:48 <+ciaranm> ...or, for that matter, if i could remember how to use cvs
17:48 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, thanks.
17:49 <+ciaranm> http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/devrel/copyright-assignment.xml?hideattic=0&rev=1.17&view=log
17:49 <@dev-zero> does the proxy have to be a gentoo-dev anyway?
17:49  * dev-zero is going to read tha ru!3z
17:49 <+ciaranm> dev-zero: no
17:50 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/xml/htdocs/proj/en/devrel/assignment.txt?hideattic=0&rev=1.2&view=markup is the exact wording
17:50 <+tanderson|na> dev-zero: I'll just make an alterego and we're good :P
17:50 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: search for 'media' for the nasty part
17:50 <@dev-zero> tanderson|na: hehe :)
17:50 <+ciaranm> hrm, no
17:50 <+ciaranm> that's not the lawyer version
17:50 <@dev-zero> tanderson|na: or someone who responded quiet fast got a job
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17:57 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, I can't believe that was written by a lawyer. It confuses copyright and IP
17:58 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: i'm not even sure if that's the lawyer's version
17:58 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: i seem to recall there being a version at one point that specifically said you have to hand over your computer if they ask for it
17:58 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, Its quite possible to assign copyright and retain IP
17:59 < NeddySeagoon> also, it takes no account in the variations in copyright law aound the world
17:59 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: one of the objections was that anyone in germany(?) couldn't legally sign the original agreement, or that they couldn't agree to hand over certain rights that it demanded
18:00 <@dev-zero> ciaranm: same problem with Switzerland I think
18:00 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, yep. In the UK employers often own copyright and IP to everything you do, even in your own time
18:00 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: fortunately the only thing i've ever had to care about on this was a one day course explaining all of it from some very highly paid lawyers for a very large software company, who only did that and got us to take a silly test so they could cover their asses regarding us understanding our rights
18:01 < NeddySeagoon> heh
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18:02 <+ciaranm> i do recall them very specifically saying that they didn't own anything we did in our own time on our own hardware, but that we should write down anything we did do and tell management everything we did in spare time so they could be clear there what they did and did not own
18:03 < Calchan> ciaranm, that's the US way and it's contagious, I spent my whole morning with lawyers today instead of doing useful work
18:03 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, read the fine print in your contract of employment
18:04 <+ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: oh, my current contract's fine on that
18:04 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, I'm glad to hear that
18:05 <+ciaranm> although for some weird reason i'm not allowed to contribute code to projects using GPL-1. i have nfc why.
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18:05 < NeddySeagoon> ciaranm, It sounds like you went into it before you signed on the dotted line
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20:40 < trelane> well, due to the silence based on what I had to say, either I'm WAY out in left field, or I'm pretty much right on it.
20:40  * trelane just hopes he got it right
20:42 <@leio> trelane: most of council members are in such a timezone to go to sleep right after meeting, I believe. I was dealing with something related though
20:42 < trelane> cool :)
20:42 <@leio> and now it's way past my bed time too, which in my timezone is really right after the meeting
20:42 < trelane> darn, I've always thought a well written argument wakes up the soul
20:43 < trelane> I'll write it better next time :)
20:43 <@leio> give it some time, people are indeed really sleeping or tired
20:44 < trelane> next time I'll send caffeine pills along with my argument then
20:44 <@leio> I think the mail was well worded and I have it marked as important in IMAP to follow-up
20:44 < trelane> thanks
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 12 00:00:30 2009