path: root/meeting-logs/20110510.txt

19:02 <@Chainsaw> So, we meeting?
19:02 <@jmbsvicetto> scarabeus: are you chairing the meeting?
19:04 <@scarabeus> yeah
19:04 <@scarabeus> sorry i spent last 14 minutes getting to net
19:04 <@scarabeus> lemme open eveyrthing i need
19:05 <@scarabeus> i just opened lappy
19:06 <@scarabeus> ok
19:06 <@scarabeus> so we can start if nobody complains :)
19:06 <@scarabeus> but there is one thing only on the topic :)
19:06 <@scarabeus> so lets start with mandatory thingie
19:06 <@scarabeus> roll call:
19:07  * scarabeus obviously here
19:07 <@Chainsaw> Yes, here.
19:07 <@Chainsaw> Mr. Vicetto was here earlier.
19:07 <@Chainsaw> Even the kitten.
19:07 <@Chainsaw> Oh, and wired.
19:08 <@scarabeus> so we lack only Betelgeuse and ferringb
19:08 <@bonsaikitten> is here.
19:09 <@scarabeus> wired, jmbsvicetto: show up again ;)
19:09  * wired here
19:09 <@Chainsaw> Just beetlejuice then.
19:09 <@wired> lol
19:09 <@jmbsvicetto> sorry, here
19:10 <@scarabeus> ok
19:10 <@scarabeus> 5 is enough for the meeting
19:10 <@scarabeus> so lets rool i guess
19:10 <@scarabeus> or does anyone has phone on those two?
19:11 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto usually calls me. He's very good about that.
19:11 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll poke Betelgeuse and ferringb 
19:11 <@scarabeus> Chainsaw: yeah he is great and responsible person
19:12 <@scarabeus> Chainsaw: i still dont understand how the kde people could trust me to be next in the row for the kde team lead :)
19:12 <@Betelgeuse> hello
19:12 <@scarabeus> so thats six :)
19:12 <@Betelgeuse> I always forget if there's no alarm.
19:12 <@Betelgeuse> At least jmbsvicetto is a good one :)
19:13 <@jmbsvicetto> I got voice mail for ferringb 
19:13 <@scarabeus> ok so lets roll
19:13 <@scarabeus> this months agenda is just one item
19:13 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll leave him a message
19:13 <@scarabeus> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/msg_4032405a712196c9f18f29aaf8f54d72.xml
19:13 <@scarabeus> unless i miss some reply
19:13 <@scarabeus> (there was one about openrc news item but that is obsolete now)
19:14 <@scarabeus> so the issue we are speaking about is nice discussion on gentoo-dev
19:14 <@scarabeus> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_eaefa325b31360324d0fe53d0b9071e6.xml
19:15 <@jmbsvicetto> is there anything for us to decide?
19:15 <@scarabeus> so the issue is that changelog is not used by some developers in certain cases, like package removals
19:16 -!- NeddySeagoon [~NeddySeag@gentoo/developer/NeddySeagoon] has joined #gentoo-council
19:16 <@Chainsaw> I strongly believe that a removal is a change, and as such belongs in a changelog.
19:16 <@Betelgeuse> And they claim that it's not required.
19:16 <@scarabeus> well technically i would just say that we want devmanual to state that changelogs must be used for all relevant changes expect typo and whitespace changes
19:16 <@jmbsvicetto> imho, we already have a policy. The "discussion" arises because some developers don't want to follow it
19:16 <@bonsaikitten> I prefer complete changelogs just so that I can see from the changelog why a removal happened
19:16 <@scarabeus> so it is explicit
19:16 <@scarabeus> and even the typo is questional
19:16 <@scarabeus> i personaly does not changelog only whitespace
19:16 <@scarabeus> eg trailing spaces removal
19:17 <@Betelgeuse> In theory you can break the ebuild with every change.
19:17 <@Chainsaw> Yes, there is a story behind a removal. It should be captured.
19:17 <@Chainsaw> In fixing a repoman warning, you can break the build.
19:17 <@Chainsaw> It would be nice to know who changed it and what their motivation was.
19:18 <@scarabeus> reverse dependencies can get broken with removal
19:18 <@scarabeus> so removals tracking in changelog is nice
19:19 <@Betelgeuse> How about voting on the strictest text: "All commits must be accompanied by ChangeLog entries" and if that doesn't pass then think how to relax it?
19:19 <@scarabeus> good idea
19:19 -!- kallamej [~kallamej@gentoo/developer/kallamej] has quit [Quit: bl2 here we go]
19:19 <@wired> i like that
19:20 <@jmbsvicetto> I'm ok with it
19:20 <@scarabeus> i agree with that too (in future commits will be changelogs so everything will be shown anyway)
19:20 <@bonsaikitten> Betelgeuse: "all" is too strict, changelog changes and whitespace fixes might not need changelog entries
19:21 < Arfrever> Why would commits of changes in never used code (e.g. inside 'if [[ ${PV} == 9999 ]]' block in non-live ebuild) be mentioned in ChangeLog?
19:21 <@scarabeus> because you alter the ebuild
19:22 <@Betelgeuse> So let's vote.
19:22 <@jmbsvicetto> Arfrever: you can always add an entry for the above stating that you're "syncing ebuild with live ebuild version"
19:23 <@ferringb> Arfrever:  "house keeping" isn't a bad message...
19:23 <@Betelgeuse> I vote yes for the reason scarabeus stated.
19:23 <@wired> I vote yes
19:23 <@scarabeus> i vote yes
19:23 <@jmbsvicetto> yes
19:23 <@ferringb> pardon folk, mildly in a sate of "walking dead" today
19:23 <@ferringb> *state
19:23 <@scarabeus> ferringb: well you shown up for the only relevant part :) so just use yar powaz
19:24 < Arfrever> It doesn't make sense to mention changes not affecting any users of given ebuild.
19:24 <@ferringb> "yes for strictest"
19:24 <@bonsaikitten> I vote no on Betelgeuse's strict form, but agree with the general idea
19:24 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: We think otherwise.
19:24 <@Betelgeuse> You can never be sure any way.
19:25 <@Betelgeuse> Chainsaw: your vote
19:29 <@scarabeus> hm
19:29 -!- alexxy[home] [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has joined #gentoo-council
19:29 -!- ssuominen [~ssuominen@gentoo/developer/ssuominen] has joined #gentoo-council
19:30 <@scarabeus> ok we have 6 votes so we can consider it official
19:30 <@Betelgeuse> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386527/
19:30 <@Betelgeuse> Please comment on this and I can push it if ok
19:31 <@scarabeus> ++
19:31 < Arfrever> Please vote on excluding changes only in comments.
19:31 <@ferringb> ';' instead of '-, but sure.
19:31 <@ferringb> Arfrever: it's a vcs log
19:31 -!- kallamej [~kallamej@gentoo/developer/kallamej] has joined #gentoo-council
19:31 <@ferringb> if you seriously think commiting w/ a message '.' in your local vcs when you screw with comments is fine...
19:31 <@ferringb> well, it's your local vcs
19:31 <@ferringb> it's not the tree
19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: semicolon where?
19:32 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: 3rd line addition
19:32 <@ferringb> or whatever the appropriate english char may be
19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: that's the old text
19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: But I had to rewrap lines
19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: Only first sentence changed in content
19:32 <@ferringb> sure doesn't look it
19:33 -!- bloodnoc [~roy@gentoo/developer/NeddySeagoon] has joined #gentoo-council
19:33 < Philantrop> Next time you're going to discuss the meaning of "should". :-) I'd make it "must".
19:34 <@Betelgeuse> Philantrop: hmm true
19:34 <@Betelgeuse> That was in my text voted also
19:36 <@Betelgeuse> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386531/
19:36 <@Betelgeuse> changed to must
19:37 <@ferringb> Arfrever: the kicker is, in certain cases, you're partally right.
19:37 <@ferringb> Arfrever: the reality is, people will just adhere to the letter of the law rather than the intent
19:37 <@ferringb> we already had that occur with removal
19:38 -!- darkside_ [~darkside@gentoo/developer/darkside] has joined #gentoo-council
19:38 <@ferringb> stupid that we have to essentially legislate common sense, but that's what it is right now ;)
19:39 < NeddySeagoon> ferringb, common sense is much rarer that you might think :)
19:39 <@ferringb> NeddySeagoon: well aware
19:39 <@Betelgeuse> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386532/
19:41 <@scarabeus> i like the last update
19:42 <@Betelgeuse> The meeting summary could point to wrapping repoman commit and the ssh tunnels
19:42 <@Betelgeuse> Those should address the speed concerns raised
19:42 <@Betelgeuse> at least I have never had issues
19:43 <@Betelgeuse> I don't do things like KDE bumps though
19:44 <@scarabeus> Betelgeuse: how?
19:44 <@scarabeus> i just echangelog everything
19:44 < Arfrever> `cvs commit` is faster than `repoman commit`. When ChangeLog is not updated during commit of deletions, then no CVS headers are changed and it's possible to commit changes in Manifest in the same commit as deletions of ebuilds.
19:44 <@scarabeus> and then category-commit it
19:45 <@jmbsvicetto> Arfrever: that argument isn't imho a valid argument for stop using repoman commit (cvs speed)
19:45 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: Like I said I don't do those category wide commits :)
19:46 <@jmbsvicetto> Arfrever: that is a good argument to get people working on replacements for cvs and or improving the QA scripts
19:46 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: I use http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386533/
19:46 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: they can be very "stressing"
19:46 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: to dig what I just told echangelog
19:47 < Arfrever> jmbsvicetto: repoman wastes time on scanning other ebuilds not updated during committing.
19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: that's not true.
19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> last time I tried to do one for KDE I had to give up as my laptop just wasn't able to keep up with it
19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: note the headers in ebuilds.
19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: or headers in any other file frankly, that was modified.
19:47 < Arfrever> ferringb: I meant commits of only deletions of ebuilds + change in Manifest.
19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: those change, chksum changes, meaning double commit for manifest
19:47 <+dberkholz> repoman takes like 10 seconds, this isn't a big issue
19:47 <@ferringb> dberkholz: exactly.
19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> and that's one reason I'd really would like to have git by now. People have to work on that, though
19:48 <@ferringb> Arfrever: if you're going to complain about speed, complain about echangelog.
19:48 <@ferringb> repoman commit's speed really isn't a point you can complain about
19:48 <@Chainsaw> Sorry for the delay.
19:48 <@Betelgeuse> Seems there's no objections to my latest devmanual patch so I'll push that in a couple minutes.
19:48 <@Chainsaw> I am for the strict beetlejuice version. Yes.
19:49 <@ferringb> beetlejuice beetlejuice beetlejuice!
19:49  * ferringb wanders off to deal with the sand worms
19:49 <@Chainsaw> ferringb: Walk without rhythm.
19:50 <@ferringb> Chainsaw: or walk as if you were a desert mouse
19:50 <@ferringb> Chainsaw: was referencing the more comical version of sand worms also ;)
19:50 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: honestly, no idea why I've not made that joke about your nick yet. ;)
19:51 <@scarabeus> ok so we have conclusion on this issue i suppose guys :)
19:52 < Arfrever> The patch for devmanual doesn't disallow `ln -fs /bin/true /usr/bin/echangelog` :) .
19:52 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: Sure but I bet QA/DevRel can come up with something
19:53 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: That doesn't end up updating ChangeLog
19:53 <@scarabeus> so next on list is bugs, where there is no change since last month i suppose
19:54 <@scarabeus> and the last thing on the list is the open floor and other topics brought by other members
19:54 <@scarabeus> so anyone anything?
19:54 <@Betelgeuse> jbartosik was supposed to be here for the council web app
19:54 <@scarabeus> Betelgeuse: btw would you mind open bug with attached changelog? or just commit it directly, if you have no access just tell infra to allow developers group to touch devmanual
19:54 <@Chainsaw> scarabeus: Nothing further your honour.
19:55 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: I have push access and it's already in
19:55 <@Betelgeuse> Any way we set a goal that we have something usable live for the meeting next month
19:55 <@scarabeus> Chainsaw: does that mean that i have to wear those silly white hair now?
19:55 < Arfrever> Also echangelog is known to break lines after very short limit. It should be changed to at least 144 :) .
19:55 <@Chainsaw> scarabeus: Look in a mirror. You already are!
19:55 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: You can open threads on mailing lists for that
19:55 <@ferringb> Arfrever: ml.
19:56 <@ferringb> this isn't going to be dissuaded by arguments about the tools potentially sucking
19:56 <@ferringb> fix the tools
19:56 <@Betelgeuse> If anyone wants access the Agilefant instance to track progress please query
19:56 <@scarabeus> i can wait for public preview :)
19:56 <@scarabeus> hope it is going well :)
19:57 <+dberkholz> Arfrever: stop breaking my terminals, they're only 80 wide.
19:57 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: GSoC hasn't officially started yet :)
19:58 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: the coding period any way but we started early
19:58 < Arfrever> dberkholz: You should switch to better terminals.
19:58  * ferringb should level the +m if arguing over decisions continues
19:58 <@ferringb> and yes, I'm an ass.
19:59 <@ferringb> think my point is made however.
19:59 <@Betelgeuse> Did you notice qiaomuf's blog post about libbash?
19:59  * bonsaikitten waits for ferringb to get stabby
20:00 <@ferringb> bonsaikitten: day's starting off that way.  one hopes it becomes more xen like before the folks I have to interview later today ;)
20:00  * scarabeus throws his knife
20:00 <@bonsaikitten> zen I hope
20:00 <@ferringb> zen even.
20:00 <@scarabeus> here borrow this ;)
20:00 <@jmbsvicetto> ferringb: hopefully zen ;)
20:00 <@scarabeus> ok so i guess thats it
20:00 <@ferringb> xen from the stance of cutting a release in between interviewing. ;)
20:00 <@jmbsvicetto> scarabeus: ok, quick note
20:00 <@ferringb> either way
20:01 <@scarabeus> jmbsvicetto: hm?
20:01 <@jmbsvicetto> I've finally sent an email about the arch teams to the project ml right before the meeting started
20:01 <@scarabeus> :)
20:01 <@scarabeus> i see i see
20:01 <@jmbsvicetto> and I'm about to send an email about the automatic testing
20:01 <@scarabeus> so now for the next meeting :) 7.6. 19:00 UTC and who is willing to chair? :)
20:01 <@jmbsvicetto> so let's see if anything comes out from that
20:02 <@jmbsvicetto> are we back to Tuesdays or do we want to do it another day of the week?
20:02 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: time works for me
20:02 < Arfrever> scarabeus: Do you mean 2011-07-06?
20:02 <@jmbsvicetto> I can do Tuesdays
20:02 <@ferringb> 19:00 really is sucking ass for me
20:02 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: context tells it's June
20:02 <@jmbsvicetto> 2001-06-07
20:02 < Arfrever> jmbsvicetto: It was in the past :) .
20:02 <@ferringb> admittedly, 20:00 isn't always great either.  22:00 is the sweet spot for me, but I suspect horrible for the rest of y'all
20:03 <@Chainsaw> I can do Tuesdays, but not the first Tuesday of the month.
20:03 <@Chainsaw> That's the LUG meeting. Second Tuesday is totally fine though.
20:03 <@ferringb> can't do mondays, tuesdays is viable, but wednesday is better
20:03 <@ferringb> then thurs/fri start getting crazy. ;)
20:03 <@scarabeus> so lets do it on wed
20:03 <@Chainsaw> And if 22:00 is better for you, I can do that.
20:03 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: 22UTC starts at 1am
20:03 <@scarabeus> it is option stuf
20:03 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: I got up at 5-6am on a saturday for one of these.
20:03 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: recall, I'm still trying to make y'all get up at a crazy hour in retaliation ;)
20:04 <@ferringb> wednesday at 19 is fine
20:04 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: yes but maybe we can find a time that suits everyone :)
20:04 <@ferringb> it's basically the "ok, fires are out" before the new fires start
20:05 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: early morn hours are what I've had for dealing w/ europe, but I've got meetings in the morning.
20:05 <@ferringb> my schedule sucks, is the short version.
20:05 <@Betelgeuse> Next meeting is the last one isn't it?
20:05 <@ferringb> will adapt to y'alls since currently, you outnumber the usians anyways. ;)
20:05 <@Chainsaw> Betelgeuse: Until the end of the world? That's 2012 isn't it?
20:06 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: better luck for the next election round :)
20:06 <@Betelgeuse> Chainsaw: for our term
20:06 <@ferringb> heh
20:06 -!- darkside_ [~darkside@gentoo/developer/darkside] has left #gentoo-council []
20:06 <@Chainsaw> Betelgeuse: Oh right.
20:07 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: Do you remember the election timetable?
20:07 < NeddySeagoon> the nomination peropd should have started then.  Is that elections slacking again :)
20:08 <@Chainsaw> Can I buy my TV commercials & news articles yet?
20:08 <@Betelgeuse> NeddySeagoon: I think the elections take about a month so there's still time before July
20:09 < NeddySeagoon> Betelgeuse, I thought it was a month each for nomintions and votes ... maybe my memory is fading with age
20:10 <@ferringb> my memory concurs
20:10 <@jmbsvicetto> iirc, the election takes place on July and the new council will take office in August
20:10 <@ferringb> yep
20:10 <@Betelgeuse> NeddySeagoon: the timeline has probably fluctuated but I'll leave that to the elections team
20:10 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto: Will we get new chairs?
20:10 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: no, 15 days each for council (nomination and voting)
20:10 <@ferringb> huh
20:10 <@ferringb> either way
20:10 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: the foundation is the one taking 1 month for each
20:10 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: Our first meeting is marked for July 14, 2010 for some reason
20:11 <@jmbsvicetto> Chainsaw: hehe
20:11 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: ok, then my memory is "skewed"
20:11 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll check the election schedule this week and will report it
20:12 <@scarabeus> ok guys i have to disappear :)
20:12 <@scarabeus> find next meeting chair and date, i am fine with everything :)
20:12 -!- alexxy[home] [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:12 <@Betelgeuse> I propose we start 5mins from now
20:12 <@scarabeus> and if anyone of you mail me log i will create proper summary and commit during this week
20:12 <@Chainsaw> Not the first Tuesday of the month.
20:12 <@scarabeus> Betelgeuse: xD
20:12 <@Chainsaw> Not a Friday/Saturday/Sunday.
20:13 <@Chainsaw> Any other day/time, I'll move stuff to make it work.
20:13 <@Betelgeuse> 2011-06-14 19UTC?
20:13 <@Betelgeuse> Or 06-15 as it was better to ferringb
20:13 <@Chainsaw> Either works for me.
20:13 <@jmbsvicetto> I can be the chair for next meeting
20:14 <@Chainsaw> That would be most appreciated.
20:14 <@ferringb> eenie meenie
20:14 <@ferringb> honestly my schedule just @!#*ing sucks
20:14 <@ferringb> all days exempting weekend aren't great
20:14 <@ferringb> wedn. is my preference, but it's not a hard req
20:15 <@Betelgeuse> wired: time preferences?
20:15 <@jmbsvicetto> So, 20110604 (Saturday) or 20110614 (Tuesday): what do you pick?
20:15 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: 0615?
20:15 <@jmbsvicetto> sorry, 20110615 (Wednesday)
20:15 <@ferringb> err
20:15 <@wired> i prefer wednesday
20:15 <@ferringb> crap.  forgot.  10-20 I'm moving.
20:16 <@wired> any time after 1800 utc
20:16 <@ferringb> specifically will be driving through redwood forests sometime on the 15th. :)
20:16 <@ferringb> week prior being my preference
20:16 <@ferringb> else I'll just have to send a proxy
20:16 <@jmbsvicetto> next attempt: 20110604 (Saturday) or 20110608 (Wednesday)
20:16 <@ferringb> 08. :)
20:16 <@wired> 08 +1
20:16 <@ferringb> <-- work beckons
20:17 <@jmbsvicetto> Wednesday - 1900 UTC
20:17 <@Betelgeuse> 08 ok
20:17 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse / bonsaikitten / Chainsaw / ferringb / scarabeus / wired: 20110608 1900 UTC, is that ok for you?
20:17 <@ferringb> yes
20:18 <@Betelgeuse> yes
20:18 <@bonsaikitten> yes
20:18 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto: Yes.
20:19 <@wired> yes
20:19 <@Chainsaw> Consensus!
20:20 <@jmbsvicetto> we're missing scarabeus 
20:20 <@Betelgeuse> 20:12 <@scarabeus> find next meeting chair and date, i am fine with everything :)
20:20 <@Chainsaw> Summary: Yes.
20:20 <@jmbsvicetto> ok, then we're settled :)
20:20 <@jmbsvicetto> Thanks everyone
20:21  * Chainsaw bows and leaves the room
20:21 <@Betelgeuse> is summary done?
20:21 -!- jmbsvicetto changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Next meeting: 20110608 1900UTC | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/utctolocal.html?time=1900 | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
20:21 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: scarabeus promised to do it soon
20:22 -!- Chainsaw [~chainsaw@gentoo/developer/atheme.member.chainsaw] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:22 <@jmbsvicetto> wired: mail about automatic testing finally sent to the mls
20:22 <@Betelgeuse> 20:12 <@scarabeus> and if anyone of you mail me log i will create proper summary and commit during this week
20:22 <@jmbsvicetto> oh, ok
20:22 <@Betelgeuse> Someone needs to commit the log
20:22 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll take care of the log later today
20:23 -!- alexxy [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has joined #gentoo-council
20:23 <@jmbsvicetto> Let's close this meeting then
20:23 -!- alexxy [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:23 <@Betelgeuse> thanks
20:23 <@jmbsvicetto> If anyone wishes to call the council attention to any issue, please do so