Log for 20180812 meeting.

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+<ulm> !proj council
+<willikins> (council@gentoo.org) dilfridge, k_f, leio, slyfox, ulm, whissi,
+            williamh
+<dilfridge> woof
+<ulm> Agenda:
+       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/49e642140724ad0d22847e4e6798cc84
+<ulm> roll call
+* K_F here
+* Whissi is here
+* dilfridge here
+* slyfox here
+* leio here                                                             [21:01]
+<ulm> WilliamH?
+* WilliamH here                                                         [21:02]
+<ulm> first topic, chairs
+<ulm> we still have to fill them for January to June 2019
+<K_F> I can always do jan/feb                                           [21:03]
+<dilfridge> let me do afterwards
+<ulm> k
+<WilliamH> K_F: heh, I can also. :-)
+<dilfridge> march, april
+<WilliamH> or I can do Mar/Apr.
+<Whissi> I can, but I don't have to :)
+<ulm> anyone for May and June?
+<leio> maybe we should leave the double ones to those that are late to
+       volunteer their months ;)
+<dilfridge> I dont really care that much but later is better for me     [21:04]
+* WilliamH will take Mar/Apr if that's ok.
+<Whissi> May / June is OK for me.
+<ulm> so, K_F jan/feb, WilliamH mar/apr, Whissi may/june?
+<WilliamH> sgtm                                                         [21:05]
+<K_F> wfm
+<ulm> dilfridge: happy with that?
+<dilfridge> sure, less work for me :P
+<WilliamH> ;-)
+<ulm> next, open bugs
+<leio> so dilfridge has none? :)
+<ulm> leio: right
+<dilfridge> the first year where I'm skipping :)                        [21:06]
+<leio> I didn't know that was an option :)
+<slyfox> :)
+<Whissi> Damn. :)
+<leio> then we should employ your summary writing skills
+<leio> anyhow, next then
+<ulm> bug 637328
+<willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/637328 "GLEP 14 needs to be updated";
+            Documentation, GLEP Changes; IN_P; mgorny:security
+<K_F> leio: there is normally someone without since 7 members and 12 months
+<dilfridge> I'll work on the TeX document anyway...
+<slyfox> that bug is open for quite a while
+<K_F> yeah, security project is working on updating the GLEP, its not
+      currently ready to be presented, but it is moving forwards internally
+                                                                        [21:07]
+<ulm> k
+<ulm> bug 642072
+<willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/642072 "Joint venture to deal with
+            copyright issues"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; CONF;
+            mgorny:council
+<K_F> one of the reasons it is taking some time is it is moving in direction
+      of GLEP 48 for QA, where Security has a say in stable arches
+<ulm> aka GLEP 76
+<dilfridge> how far is this? I thought we were essentially ready?       [21:08]
+<K_F> and broader scope wrt upstream contributions / mailing lists as have
+      been discusssed previously
+<K_F> dilfridge: the joint venture or security part?
+<dilfridge> glep 76
+<K_F> right, DCO seems ready enough there
+<ulm> some discussions ongoing
+<ulm> nothing publicly visible though                                   [21:09]
+<dilfridge> oh right the infernal discussion about "our dco or standard dco"
+<K_F> I'm actually fine with the dual variant, i.e specify if it is kernel DCO
+<dilfridge> yes that is a practical and good option
+<K_F> which obviously can't be used to assigning licenses etc           [21:10]
+<WilliamH> With know knowledge really, I would prefer the standard dco
+<ulm> maybe I've found a wording where we can use the kernel one
+<ulm> but it's not in public git yet
+<ulm> anyway, should be ready soonish
+<slyfox> nice
+* dilfridge likes the dual variant too (and "our" dco *is* better wording)
+                                                                        [21:11]
+<K_F> yeah, the kernel one is fine for them, but not for us
+<K_F> if we feel we need lawyer review we should request it
+<K_F> which might be a good thing anyways
+<ulm> move on?                                                          [21:12]
+<WilliamH> This is for after the meeting, but I don't understand what's wrong
+           with the kernel one.
+<K_F> wfm
+<K_F> WilliamH: it won't work directly for us as a distro
+<dilfridge> WilliamH: seriously? this was a weeks-long discussion, and you
+            missed all of it?
+<ulm> WilliamH: right, let's discuss it after the meeting               [21:13]
+<K_F> week/months
+<K_F> ulm: but yeah, that should be a proper item when its ready
+<K_F> so moving on is fine, I'm curious to learn your working at some point
+      though
+<ulm> let's move on, open floor
+<ulm> I've one item myself
+<ulm> can we exchange phone numbers again?                              [21:14]
+<ulm> per e-mail, that is
+<dilfridge> \o/
+<dilfridge> sure
+<Whissi> YEah, per mail
+<K_F> sure, that doesn't require topic here though, lets do on alias
+<WilliamH> sure.
+<b-man> 5743290326
+<b-man> Call me... Maybw
+<K_F> in particular for new members etc
+<ulm> I'll send an e-mail after the meeting then
+<slyfox> sounds good
+<dilfridge> 32 16 8                                                     [21:15]
+<leio> I have a note and a discussion
+<ulm> dilfridge: oh my :)
+<K_F> my item for open floor is an encouragement for additional work for PR
+      project, in particular if there is anything we can do to increase US
+      precense
+<K_F> the PR project today is mostly an ad-hoc group of the people already
+      doing PR.. but its very EU and japan centric                      [21:16]
+<K_F> is there anything we can do to encourage US activity?
+<leio> pimp the job to potential volunteers and empower them
+<K_F> not necessarily something to decide on in this meeting (then it'd be a
+      proper item), but we need more recruiting and availibility        [21:17]
+<dilfridge> well, technically we have maffblaster, dabbott in the team
+<dilfridge> and maffblaster is certainly active
+<K_F> it isn't even just about conferences but participations in LUGs etc
+                                                                        [21:18]
+<K_F> but there have been discussions of divergence in gentoo developer and
+      foundation membership over the years etc, where EU is becomming more
+      relevant                                                          [21:19]
+<K_F> so we might want a greater effort bringing in US developers
+<dilfridge> fwiw I think your analysis (that the US developership is more
+            company driven while EU/Asia is more volunteer driven) is correct
+                                                                        [21:20]
+<K_F> which on some level is good for Gentoo in that we get the resources, but
+      it doesn't help new recruiting                                    [21:21]
+<leio> I find we need to have more interesting things going on for people to
+       be excited about Gentoo, too. Then PR just "happens" somewhat.
+<leio> our current visible PR activity mainly feels to be from a vocal
+       minority of systemd haters.                                      [21:22]
+<dilfridge> hmm?
+<dilfridge> what do you mean?
+<K_F> in any case, nothing to decide for today, so fine with moving on, but we
+      should keep in mind trying to encourage developers to be more active in
+      their communities
+<WilliamH> leio: not really, I haven't heard a lot of complaining about
+           systemd as of late.                                          [21:23]
+<K_F> and also in upstream communities, instead of carrying local patches etc
+<WilliamH> K_F++ I'm not a fan of carrying local patches either.        [21:24]
+<ulm> anything else for this item?
+<Whissi> K_F: Can you tell us an example you think of how council help here?
+<ulm> leio: you had something too?
+<leio> I mean that it'd be a whole lot easier to PR when we have various
+       innovative stuff to talk about
+<b-man> I'd he happy to promote in U.S.                                 [21:25]
+<leio> yeah, as a note, I'd like to request my fellow council members to be
+       properly prepared for meetings, and participate and research in the
+       necessary topics beforehand and in time as well
+<dilfridge> for that we need to code something instead of discussing
+            metastructure
+<leio> and as a discussion, how would people feel about occasionally
+       informally having voice chats
+<K_F> Whissi: not specifically, hence it being a good discussion item
+<K_F> we might need to pay the airfare and booth presense at certain
+      conferences                                                       [21:26]
+<WilliamH> I have no problem with voice chats. it would have to be evenings or
+           weekends for me though.
+<b-man> As discussed with K_F in -trustees, I do think we need more U.S. PR
+<K_F> for two developers to man the booth, etc
+<b-man> ++on company driven.
+<dilfridge> no objections to voice chat                                 [21:27]
+<b-man> Damned capatilism
+<K_F> and get a proper writeup of it with pictures/documentation afterwards to
+      send out
+<WilliamH> b-man: ;-)
+<K_F> at the leats a blog writeup on a planet blog
+<K_F> WilliamH: voice chats?
+<WilliamH> K_F: I have no problem with that.
+<K_F> WilliamH: where I know gentoo has been mentioned is in various podcasts
+                                                                        [21:28]
+<b-man> I would also add to open floor: if the foundation can support the
+        council in anyway monetarily or legally please let us know.
+<K_F> WilliamH: e.g Linuxpodden in swedish we had a nice talk
+<K_F> so many something like that in US?
+<b-man> K_F: we have a lot of things.  I think it is just distance that
+        precludes most from attending.
+<WilliamH> Hmm, Is dabbott still running linuxcrazy? He used to talk about
+           Gentoo a lot.
+<K_F> b-man: right, but podcasts etc won't be an issue for distance     [21:29]
+<leio> K_F: I think that was about my topic of speaking on voice between
+       council members occasionally.
+<b-man> E.g. I am east coast, but many confs on West coast.
+<b-man> That's a 4 hour flight.
+<K_F> leio: ah, I missed that, I'm not really in favor, voice is normally bad
+      signal/noise ratio and no direct logging
+<b-man> K_F: sure, podcasts would be good.  I will look for some to discuss
+        Gentoo on.
+<K_F> so I always prefer text > voice
+<K_F> but podcasts, or even creating a promotional video similar to what
+      fedora and suse is doing                                          [21:30]
+<K_F> can be rather interesting
+<K_F> to try to bring more people into the community
+<b-man> K_F: can you PM me that Fedora and Suse are doing?
+<b-man> I'll have a look.
+<slyfox> i liked linuxcrazy podcasts with random gentoo devs :)         [21:31]
+* b-man likes Fedoras magazine
+<K_F> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Rn0iQEpc8
+<K_F> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYRlTISvjww
+<WilliamH> Yeah, it looks like dabbott isn't doing any more linuxcrazy
+           podcasts. :(                                                 [21:32]
+<K_F> b-man: will look through emails for some fedora ones..
+<b-man> Cool
+<ulm> anything else for open floor?                                     [21:33]
+<leio> but essentially they are companies with paid workers that can also
+       outsource PR media work when necessary, and they back it up with
+       driving the new linux ecosystem developments with that paid workforce..
+<b-man> ulm: cats
+<K_F> b-man: if you want a copy of the linuxpodden Klondike and I were in in
+      swedish that is also online :)
+<b-man> I don't speak English well, let alone Swedish.
+* dilfridge tries hard to refrain from Møøse jokes.                     [21:34]
+<leio> Who from council members is willing to try getting to know ideas for
+       gentoo and such things with other members over voice?
+<leio> better to brainstorm things.
+<dilfridge> works for me
+<b-man> I love voice.
+<ulm> wfm too                                                           [21:35]
+* WilliamH is willing to
+<K_F> I don't really see how it improves things, but if we are to do that,
+      what platform etc? it should at least be open source
+* b-man looks forward to correcting bad English :-P
+<K_F> it should also have recording capability to ease writing up summaries
+<b-man> K_F: It allows much further discussion/brainstorming with a magnitude
+        less time investment.
+<WilliamH> That kills the best ones for me unfortunately, hangouts or skype.
+                                                                        [21:36]
+<b-man> Also, it allows getting to know people
+<K_F> b-man: in my experience it is the opposite, much easier to multi-task in
+      text
+<leio> I don't care, mumble or skype is best for me.
+<dilfridge> how about keeping it informal instead (no summaries, only
+            additional to normal meeting)?
+<b-man> Yes, informal.
+<K_F> and also getting things contextualized
+<leio> yes, I was proposing fully informal
+<leio> I don't dream of holding meetings over voice just yet.
+<b-man> It just helps getting to know folks.                            [21:37]
+* dilfridge imagines banging a real gavel in a virtual conference room
+<b-man> Understand their perspective, ideas, and emotions.
+<K_F> I don't necessarily see voice being better than text for that, but..
+<b-man> Saying one thing in text and saying it in voice is completely
+        different.
+<K_F> meeting up with various council members in person otoh has been very
+      useful                                                            [21:38]
+<b-man> Hence... Endless bikeshedding.
+<K_F> so in that case I'd bring it to next step and have an actual meetup
+      somewhere
+<K_F> and ask for foundation money for council members to meet where it is
+      most economically efficient
+<WilliamH> K_F: that would require international travel ;-)
+<K_F> and stay for a weekend and work out things
+<b-man> Seems reasonable.
+<K_F> WilliamH: that might not be much of an issue                      [21:39]
+<b-man> In person > voice.
+<ulm> K_F: maybe that's best done in connection with another event?
+<dilfridge> ulm: where's the geographical center of the council now?
+<K_F> in particular if doing it around a conference
+<K_F> e.g day before FOSDEM
+<b-man> In person > voice > text
+<K_F> where devs are likely to be anyways
+<dilfridge> last time it was on the middle-atlantic ridge somewhere between
+            the acores and iceland
+<K_F> ulm: exactly
+<b-man> dilfridge: Azores? :+p
+<slyfox> dilfridge: sounld like almost in london :)
+<WilliamH> Do US devs go to fosdem regularly?                           [21:40]
+<dilfridge> not many... some, occasionally
+<K_F> WilliamH: at leat some have recently
+<dilfridge> with leio, whissi & slyfox I guess the center moved east a lot
+<K_F> robbat at minconf in prague, prometheanfire at FOSDEM
+<Whissi> :)
+<K_F> but going from Norway to e.g New York is relatively cheap, so I don't
+      mind paying for that for a weekend                                [21:41]
+<K_F> we could even combine that with some conference
+<WilliamH> K_F: heh, I'm probably 3-4 hours from NY.
+<WilliamH> maybe more depending.
+* dilfridge is probably 3-4h from oslo                                  [21:42]
+<b-man> Alright, fine.  A conference at my place.  Just south of D.C.
+<WilliamH> dilfridge: I have no clue how far I am from you. ;-)
+<K_F> the meetup we had in Mainz was useful to me
+<dilfridge> WilliamH: in terms of airplane hours probably 8 or so, roughly
+<K_F> and frankfurt is quite the international hub
+<b-man> I have a special room just for the council members.
+<dilfridge> or, wait
+<leio> I wouldn't be thrilled with dealing with US visas and policies of the
+       day and whatnot.
+<leio> I think around FOSDEM is the most likely pick                    [21:43]
+<b-man> We can go shoot guns, drink beer, and discuss Gentoo all in one day.
+<leio> but indeed before or after it, which might get influenced by work work
+<K_F> leio: yes, I'd expect the friday before FOSDEM to be a good day
+<K_F> with participation also during weekend
+<b-man> Who's in?
+<leio> having in mind also that FOSDEM has a lot of other developers and
+       gentoo users around to pick their brains too.
+<veremitz> beware Beer .. Thursday?                                     [21:44]
+<leio> FOSDEM is on my agenda to finally get to again, at least
+<b-man> Meh, no one wants to come to the South I guess.
+<leio> but meanwhile we can do informal voice meetings and brainstorm things,
+       and actually try to lead Gentoo from there
+<Whissi> +1 informal voice meetings                                     [21:45]
+<b-man> Whissi: we have peanut butter and orange juice
+* WilliamH is fine with informal voice meetings
+* WilliamH isn't sure about a meetup at fosdem though
+<Whissi> b-man: You mean rancid butter because you cannot sell them anymore...
+         ;)
+<K_F> I'm not rally a fan of informal meetings without recording/logging, but
+      if we go for that it needs to be proper open source solution at least
+<Whissi> K_F: Before we do any formal meeting let's have at least one informal
+         talk to check if there are any technical issues.               [21:46]
+<K_F> Whissi: sure, that makes sense
+<K_F> but it likely should be available as listen-only to others as well if we
+      do                                                                [21:47]
+<WilliamH> K_F: I think you are going to block me from coming unfortunately if
+           you insist on an open source solution...
+<K_F> WilliamH: no mumble etc alternative?
+<WilliamH> K_F: not that I know of.
+<K_F> iirc nextcloud has voice options?
+<WilliamH> What is nextcloud?                                           [21:48]
+<K_F> so I'd expect if someone runs that as host we'd be fine already, I
+      haven't bothered moving on from ownCloud though
+<K_F> WilliamH: is that a serious question or rethorical?
+<b-man> Gentoo infra voice!
+<leio> I think it's more about what is accessible without doing GUI desktop
+       a11y for him.
+<Whissi> When we do an informal meeting I am not sure if we need to record
+         anything. And to be honest, I wouldn't like it. At least for the
+         first one. But for any official meeting, of course...          [21:49]
+<leio> maybe we should continue specifics outside meeting
+<b-man> No need for informal
+<WilliamH> K_F: the only accessible voice chat options I know of are hangouts
+           and zoom.
+<WilliamH> K_F: or maybe skype.
+<WilliamH> K_F: I do most of that stuff from a windows box.
+<leio> but as a concrete try somewhere, I suggest council meeting time, but in
+       say 2 weeks, not the formal meeting time                         [21:50]
+<K_F> yeah, not really much use discussing this during meeting.. but I don't
+      like relying on non-open-source alternatives in general for official
+      stuff
+<WilliamH> leio: Right.
+* dilfridge will be on vacation then, but it might work anyway
+<slyfox> should work even better with beach background                  [21:51]
+<K_F> I'm for it as long as it is (i) open source server (ii) client in Gentoo
+      repository
+<WilliamH> leio: as I said above, I do most of this type of thing from
+           Windows.
+<WilliamH> leio: We use hangouts all the time at the office so I'm most
+           familiar with that.                                          [21:52]
+<K_F> or client is platform independent, nextCloud might qualify
+<ulm> I think the technical details could also be discussed after the meeting
+<ulm> any other topic for open floor?
+<slyfox> nope
+<K_F> not from me
+<b-man> Cats
+<b-man> Damnit.                                                         [21:53]
+<Whissi> Nothing from me.
+<b-man> My cat is in kidney failure :(
+<b-man> ^ legit
+<K_F> b-man: I don't care
+* ulm bangs the gavel
+<ulm> meeting closed
+<b-man> K_F: cats lives matter
+<slyfox> \o/ thanks all!
+<b-man> Alright, too many beers for me.  I'm off.
+*** ulm (~ulm@gentoo/developer/ulm) has set the topic for #gentoo-council:
+    "180th meeting: 2018-09-09 *** 19:00 UTC *** |
+    https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20180909T19 |
+    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council |
+    https://dev.gentoo.org/~dilfridge/decisions.html"                   [21:54]
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