path: root/meeting-logs/20070308.txt

Mar 08 14:59:39 * kingtaco|work sets mode +m #gentoo-council
Mar 08 14:59:43 * think4urs11 (n=its-me@p5494F109.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 14:59:45 <kingtaco|work> aight, might as well get started
Mar 08 14:59:50 <kingtaco|work> rollcall
Mar 08 15:00:05 <Kugelfang> gimem 2 mins please
Mar 08 15:00:17 <kingtaco|work> I'm here
Mar 08 15:00:25 <kingtaco|work> robbat2, kloeri wolf31o2|mobile
Mar 08 15:00:30 <wolf31o2|mobile> present and somewhat here mentally... head cold is killing me
Mar 08 15:00:31 <kloeri> yo
Mar 08 15:00:54 <kingtaco|work> aight, so council topics
Mar 08 15:01:23 <kingtaco|work> I listed on -dev the following: PMS, gentoo certified hardware and gentoo branded hardware
Mar 08 15:01:23 <robbat2> yo
Mar 08 15:01:43 <kingtaco|work> we also have appoint uberlord(which is first)
Mar 08 15:01:52 <kingtaco|work> who else has topics?
Mar 08 15:02:11 <wolf31o2|mobile> I do...
Mar 08 15:02:16 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 15:02:20 * Kugelfang back
Mar 08 15:02:26 <wolf31o2|mobile> 2, actually...
Mar 08 15:02:30 <kloeri> we probably need to discuss the mailinglist problems
Mar 08 15:02:35 <wolf31o2|mobile> first, on request, the flames
Mar 08 15:02:37 <wolf31o2|mobile> yup
Mar 08 15:02:48 <wolf31o2|mobile> second, what power should the council have
Mar 08 15:02:53 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 15:02:55 <robbat2> wasn't there also discussion on the council-managed projects?
Mar 08 15:03:09 <kingtaco|work> robbat2, my hardware stuff is council projects
Mar 08 15:03:32 <robbat2> ok
Mar 08 15:03:33 * welp[lap] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Mar 08 15:03:42 <kingtaco|work> anything else?
Mar 08 15:03:47 <kingtaco|work> SpanKY, Kugelfang ?
Mar 08 15:03:52 <Kugelfang> not  from me
Mar 08 15:04:22 <kingtaco|work> aight, first item
Mar 08 15:04:25 <kingtaco|work> uberlord
Mar 08 15:04:28 <kingtaco|work> who isn't here
Mar 08 15:04:30 <vapier> [14:50] <vapier> i guess in the future, we just need to make sure that no such retarded restrictions are put into place
Mar 08 15:04:41 <kingtaco|work> vapier, noted
Mar 08 15:05:21 <kingtaco|work> last month we decided that we could unanmiously approve the Nth person from the original council vote in for a reduced sentence to fill a vacancy
Mar 08 15:05:24 * welp[lap] (n=welp@gentoo/developer/welp) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:05:32 <kingtaco|work> uberlord is #8, and flameeyes has quit
Mar 08 15:05:36 <kloeri> right
Mar 08 15:05:44 <Kugelfang> i think we can just commence voting, right?
Mar 08 15:05:59 <kingtaco|work> or we could punt it if people want to ask him questions
Mar 08 15:06:08 <vapier> UberLord is fine by me and seems the rest of community felt that way when we the vote happened last time
Mar 08 15:06:11 <wolf31o2|mobile> I'm ready to vote on it
Mar 08 15:06:15 <Kugelfang> dito
Mar 08 15:06:25 <kingtaco|work> anyone not want to vote?
Mar 08 15:06:29 <vapier> KingTaco: questions should have been asked before :p
Mar 08 15:06:38 <kingtaco|work> vapier, agreed, but meh
Mar 08 15:06:41 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 15:06:46 <Kugelfang> he's a nice guy, capable and has a nice taste regarding beer
Mar 08 15:06:55 <kingtaco|work> vote: bring uberlord in to replace flameeyes
Mar 08 15:06:56 <Kugelfang> so let's vorte :-P
Mar 08 15:07:01 <Kugelfang> yes
Mar 08 15:07:14 <wolf31o2|mobile> yes
Mar 08 15:07:15 <robbat2> yes
Mar 08 15:07:20 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 15:07:21 <kloeri> yes
Mar 08 15:07:33 <Kugelfang> vapier:
Mar 08 15:07:35 <vapier> <vapier> UberLord is fine by me
Mar 08 15:07:40 <kingtaco|work> done
Mar 08 15:07:45 <kingtaco|work> uberlord is accepted
Mar 08 15:07:51 <kingtaco|work> and now marked as a slacker
Mar 08 15:07:52 <wolf31o2|mobile> man, if only every topic went like that
Mar 08 15:07:52 <Kugelfang> wherever he is right now
Mar 08 15:08:07 <wolf31o2|mobile> would he be a slacker if he wasn't on the council prior to the meeting?
Mar 08 15:08:14 <Kugelfang> i don't think so
Mar 08 15:08:23 <kingtaco|work> ok, we let this one slide
Mar 08 15:08:24 <wolf31o2|mobile> me either
Mar 08 15:08:26 <wolf31o2|mobile> yup
Mar 08 15:08:26 <Kugelfang> *g*
Mar 08 15:08:29 <kloeri> has anybody pinged him about the meeting?
Mar 08 15:08:32 <kingtaco|work> I did
Mar 08 15:08:54 <kloeri> ok
Mar 08 15:09:07 <kingtaco|work> aight
Mar 08 15:09:09 <kingtaco|work> next business
Mar 08 15:09:40 <kingtaco|work> anyone want to go first?
Mar 08 15:09:46 <Kugelfang> PMS?
Mar 08 15:09:52 <wolf31o2|mobile> go for it... it's your show
Mar 08 15:09:56 <Kugelfang> is it?
Mar 08 15:09:57 <Kugelfang> *g*
Mar 08 15:10:03 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 15:10:06 <kingtaco|work> I'll do pms
Mar 08 15:10:08 <Kugelfang> ok, most council folks have a draft of PMS now
Mar 08 15:10:08 <kingtaco|work> it's my topic
Mar 08 15:10:22 <Kugelfang> who hasn't?
Mar 08 15:10:31 <Kugelfang> robbat2: what about you?
Mar 08 15:10:33 <robbat2> i haven't, mainly as I don't have time yet
Mar 08 15:10:38 <Kugelfang> robbat2: want one?
Mar 08 15:10:38 <robbat2> but an aside on that
Mar 08 15:10:50 <kingtaco|work> there are a couple perceived problems with how the current PMS was developed
Mar 08 15:10:54 <robbat2> i'll need to look soon, because i've got a note about tree-signing for later
Mar 08 15:10:56 * spaetz (n=spaetz@v30439.1blu.de) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:11:02 <robbat2> Kugelfang, yes please
Mar 08 15:11:02 <Kugelfang> robbat2: nod
Mar 08 15:11:35 <kingtaco|work> 1. up until now, it's only included people from 2 of the 3 pkgmgrs
Mar 08 15:11:52 <vapier> you mean 1 of the 3
Mar 08 15:12:01 <kingtaco|work> apparently zmedico has access
Mar 08 15:12:08 <vapier> k
Mar 08 15:12:11 <kingtaco|work> I haven't been able to talk with him yet to confirm
Mar 08 15:12:18 <kingtaco|work> I'm going to assume that Kugelfang wouldn't lie to me
Mar 08 15:12:48 <Kugelfang> thanks :-)
Mar 08 15:12:50 <Kugelfang> yes, he has access
Mar 08 15:13:02 <wolf31o2|mobile> can we get a list of who has access?
Mar 08 15:13:08 <Kugelfang> a rough one
Mar 08 15:13:12 <Kugelfang> one seco
Mar 08 15:13:15 <wolf31o2|mobile> sure... something close
Mar 08 15:13:15 <wolf31o2|mobile> ok
Mar 08 15:13:17 <vapier> regardless, i dont think that's been a detriment to the overall quality as a initial draft
Mar 08 15:13:35 <vapier> spb/ciaranm know we wouldnt accept bullshit disguised as a spec
Mar 08 15:13:39 <kingtaco|work> no, however as an accepted standard, it cannot exclude any interested party
Mar 08 15:13:52 <kingtaco|work> it's not complete yet
Mar 08 15:14:01 <kingtaco|work> they haven't finished, and there is still time to include pkgcore
Mar 08 15:14:02 <kloeri> nobody is saying to exclude anybody for the final standard
Mar 08 15:14:09 <vapier> right, nor is it described as such
Mar 08 15:14:17 <kingtaco|work> however, it's taken much longer than any of us had initialy though
Mar 08 15:14:31 <wolf31o2|mobile> +t
Mar 08 15:14:31 <kingtaco|work> so here's my proposal
Mar 08 15:14:34 <kloeri> and spb said earlier that it would probably be opened further in a couple of weeks so everybody can comment on it
Mar 08 15:14:58 <kingtaco|work> why don't we label whatever portage ships with 2007.0 as the final EAPI=0
Mar 08 15:15:08 <kingtaco|work> people can document it without deadlines
Mar 08 15:15:16 <kingtaco|work> and we can go forward with EAPI=1
Mar 08 15:15:31 <kingtaco|work> thoughts?
Mar 08 15:15:35 <vapier> there's a deficiency or two in portage that i'd disagree with
Mar 08 15:15:36 <Kugelfang> access: spb, ciaranm, pioto, , me, betelgeuse, all council except diego (no chance to give him)
Mar 08 15:15:47 <kloeri> because we want the documentation and not some vague notion of whatever is supported at 2007.0 time imo
Mar 08 15:15:59 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, it's been what, 6 months?
Mar 08 15:16:00 <Kugelfang> access: zmedico, genone
Mar 08 15:16:12 <Kugelfang> that's all who i remember right now
Mar 08 15:16:18 <vapier> KingTaco: about, first discussed 20060914
Mar 08 15:16:20 <kingtaco|work> it's taking too long and holding up other things
Mar 08 15:16:31 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: PMS documents portage capabilities...
Mar 08 15:16:38 <kloeri> kingtaco|work: maybe, but just ignoring documentation doesn't solve the lack of documentation and it should be open quite soon so it can be finished
Mar 08 15:16:42 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I know what it does
Mar 08 15:16:51 <kingtaco|work> I'm trying to paralellize things
Mar 08 15:17:00 <Kugelfang> i mean, this thing is almost finished
Mar 08 15:17:06 <Kugelfang> as you pointed out yourself
Mar 08 15:17:08 <kingtaco|work> so we're not hostage to ciaranms "priorities" and spbs master thesis
Mar 08 15:17:45 <Kugelfang> honestly, ciaranm wasn't asked to do this... so why should we be hostage to his priorities?
Mar 08 15:17:46 <kloeri> I think hostage is a bit strong tbh
Mar 08 15:18:00 <kingtaco|work> I view EAPI=0as some snapshot
Mar 08 15:18:03 <g2boojum> kingtaco|work: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, but somebody could have said "EAPI-0 is whatever portage does" years ago, but that doesn't docuement anything.  You'd still have to write up what it's doing.
Mar 08 15:18:04 <Kugelfang> it's his voluntary contribution
Mar 08 15:18:10 <kloeri> and it should be open soon so that everybody can work on it which is what you want I guess
Mar 08 15:18:18 <kingtaco|work> g2boojum, yes, and in hindsight we should have
Mar 08 15:18:21 <Kugelfang> licensed under CC-sa-3.0
Mar 08 15:18:31 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: dude, it has been done
Mar 08 15:18:34 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, don't second guess me, ask
Mar 08 15:18:40 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: exactly what you say has been done
Mar 08 15:19:07 <kloeri> kingtaco|work: ok, do you want it to be opened so that everybody can participate?
Mar 08 15:19:19 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 15:19:53 <Kugelfang> christel wants me to point out that she has access, too :-D
Mar 08 15:20:01 <kingtaco|work> however, more than anything else, I want it to be done
Mar 08 15:20:11 <kloeri> fine, we've been told that going to happen in a week or two most likely so why make some arbitrary decision about a random portage version shipped with 2007.0 being EAPI0 when we're so close?
Mar 08 15:20:13 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: there is a list of fixmes
Mar 08 15:20:14 <wolf31o2|mobile> if they say they're two weeks away, then I'm willing to wait those two weeks
Mar 08 15:20:17 <g2boojum> kingtaco|work: You missed my point.  You'd still have to document it, which would likely take notably more time to do from scratch than waiting for spb's doc to be released, which would then at least serve as a starting point if you want to backtrack to a particular version of portage.
Mar 08 15:20:23 * UberL (n=uberlord@rsm.demon.co.uk) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:20:35 * vapier gives voice to UberL
Mar 08 15:20:39 >chanserv< list
Mar 08 15:20:46 <Kugelfang> hey UberL
Mar 08 15:20:47 >chanserv< list #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:20:48 <kingtaco|work> g2boojum, I don't think that doc is much different from what will be released as 2007.0
Mar 08 15:20:53 * kingtaco|work gives channel operator status to UberL
Mar 08 15:20:57 <UberL> soz I'm late guys
Mar 08 15:21:03 <Kugelfang> slacker
Mar 08 15:21:16 <wolf31o2|mobile> g2boojum: I think what Mike meant was that we would backtrack to 2.1.2.2 (which is what we're using for 2007.0) and everything beyond that, feature-wise, would be EAPI > 0
Mar 08 15:21:18 <vapier> KingTaco: it may not be much different, but i think the few differences would make EAPI=0 -> EAPI=1 painful
Mar 08 15:21:28 >chanserv< access #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:21:30 <kingtaco|work> g2boojum, makeing it coencide with a release gives a very nice test case as to if something is eapi0 compliant
Mar 08 15:21:47 <Kugelfang> i disagree
Mar 08 15:22:03 <kingtaco|work> known bugs aside
Mar 08 15:22:20 <Kugelfang> so, how do you decide what is a bug without a spec?
Mar 08 15:22:38 <kingtaco|work> I think they are all documented in our bugzilla
Mar 08 15:22:51 <Kugelfang> i'm not sure about that
Mar 08 15:22:56 <wolf31o2|mobile> nobody said we don't get a spec
Mar 08 15:23:04 <kingtaco|work> then I have to ask why not?
Mar 08 15:23:11 <kingtaco|work> if it's not filed as a bug then it's not a damn bug
Mar 08 15:23:22 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: heh, even those bugs which haven't been found yet?
Mar 08 15:23:28 <Kugelfang> nothgin is bug free
Mar 08 15:23:54 <vapier> kingtaco|laptop: i think your initial post to the -dev list about deadlines was enough to get the final kick going
Mar 08 15:23:59 <wolf31o2|mobile> jesus h christ... can we try to not be so damned pedantic for a change?
Mar 08 15:24:08 <vapier> the current track for this to be opened before next council meeting is sufficient
Mar 08 15:24:18 <Kugelfang> i think that's doable
Mar 08 15:24:23 <kingtaco|work> we can't vote next council
Mar 08 15:24:27 <wolf31o2|mobile> I agree with vapier... if they're on track to have it open by the next council meeting, I'm game
Mar 08 15:24:32 <wolf31o2|mobile> no, not vote
Mar 08 15:24:36 <kingtaco|work> it won't have sat for public review long enough
Mar 08 15:24:41 <wolf31o2|mobile> just make sure it's open for comment before then
Mar 08 15:24:59 <kingtaco|work> also, I've heard of someone else wanted to write the spec
Mar 08 15:25:00 <wolf31o2|mobile> we definitely want a longer review period than a couple weeks
Mar 08 15:25:12 <g2boojum> kingtaco|work: That's a Council-made rule, so the Council can make exceptions.  I'm not saying you should, just that you could.
Mar 08 15:25:28 * g2boojum butts out, now
Mar 08 15:25:29 <kingtaco|work> I don't see any vote on that document happening for at least 2 months
Mar 08 15:25:29 <wolf31o2|mobile> there's nothing wrong with a competing spec
Mar 08 15:25:34 <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed
Mar 08 15:25:36 <kloeri> well, we can have competing specifications if we want
Mar 08 15:25:37 <kingtaco|work> and thats if it went public in 2 weeks
Mar 08 15:25:49 <kingtaco|work> in the mean time we're still stuck on eapi-0
Mar 08 15:26:05 <kloeri> council will just have to vote on the final specification (same thing however many specs we have)
Mar 08 15:26:08 <kingtaco|work> why should we waste 2 months when it's not needed?
Mar 08 15:26:11 <Kugelfang> i just want to see who's going to write a 48 page spec on the package manager in the same time :-)
Mar 08 15:26:26 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, write it in text and it'll be less than 20
Mar 08 15:26:28 <robbat2> how about an in-between meeting?
Mar 08 15:26:42 <robbat2> it's probably going to be a large discussion in council for the spec anyway
Mar 08 15:26:44 <kloeri> we need the spec to be complete and accurate which takes time
Mar 08 15:26:48 <kingtaco|work> vapier, wolf31o2|mobile and what happens when they miss their deadline
Mar 08 15:26:49 <vapier> i think a competing spec is redundant
Mar 08 15:26:50 <kloeri> no way to avoid that imo
Mar 08 15:26:58 <kingtaco|work> I hate the idea of a competing spec
Mar 08 15:27:01 <wolf31o2|mobile> kingtaco|laptop: *we* open it
Mar 08 15:27:17 <kingtaco|work> but personality problems between the 2 groups almost dictate it
Mar 08 15:27:18 <vapier> kingtaco|laptop: then we take it over
Mar 08 15:27:25 <wolf31o2|mobile> kingtaco|laptop: if they're agreeing it can be opened by the next meeting, we just hold them to it
Mar 08 15:27:32 <Kugelfang> it'S CC-sa-3.0, so i don't see a problem
Mar 08 15:27:37 <vapier> ive given it a glance over and it looks good
Mar 08 15:27:47 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, then why arn't we able to release it now?
Mar 08 15:27:55 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: they haven't released it yet
Mar 08 15:28:13 <kingtaco|work> ok, I'
Mar 08 15:28:16 <Kugelfang> they want it released when all those little "fixmes" are gone
Mar 08 15:28:23 <kingtaco|work> ok, I'm willing to hold my tounge for 1 more month
Mar 08 15:28:25 <kingtaco|work> nothing more
Mar 08 15:28:36 <kingtaco|work> it must be open for public review
Mar 08 15:28:50 <Kugelfang> oh come one... nobody said it won't be
Mar 08 15:28:55 <Kugelfang> -e
Mar 08 15:29:01 <vapier> Kugelfang: before today, no one said it would be
Mar 08 15:29:03 * The_Paya (i=the_paya@gentoo/developer/thepaya) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:29:09 <Kugelfang> vapier: sure
Mar 08 15:29:17 <kingtaco|work> vapier, about 55 minutes ago to be exact
Mar 08 15:29:17 <wolf31o2|mobile> no, nobody gave us a timeframe in which it would be
Mar 08 15:29:31 <Kugelfang> vapier: spb always stated: "no public draft before they deem it ready, then public review"
Mar 08 15:29:36 <wolf31o2|mobile> spb gave us a rough estimate today... 2 weeks... we're giving him 4... heh
Mar 08 15:29:44 <vapier> Kugelfang: and that's too vague
Mar 08 15:29:55 <Kugelfang> vapier: there's been enough mails on that on -dev
Mar 08 15:30:10 <vapier> no, most of those e-mails were retarded and unrelated
Mar 08 15:30:10 <Kugelfang> vapier: the pity is, that it all ended up in the ciaranm-drobbins flamefest
Mar 08 15:30:21 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, the simple fact that there were that many emails shows that there is a very strong divide
Mar 08 15:30:38 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: but not on the contents
Mar 08 15:30:55 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, how could it be on the content?
Mar 08 15:31:03 <kingtaco|work> the majority haven't seen it
Mar 08 15:31:13 <Kugelfang> see the point? people discuss a thing they haven't had the chance to read yet..
Mar 08 15:31:34 <kingtaco|work> see my point? people want to participate and an external group is telling them no
Mar 08 15:31:36 <Kugelfang> this is the exact reason why i hadn't been published
Mar 08 15:31:46 <vapier> regardless, i think it's settled for now ... the stuff spb posted looks good and will be opened to the public soonish
Mar 08 15:32:00 <kingtaco|work> 1 month more
Mar 08 15:32:02 <kingtaco|work> no more
Mar 08 15:32:03 <Kugelfang> *g*
Mar 08 15:32:07 <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed... next topic?
Mar 08 15:32:16 <kingtaco|work> anyone disagree?
Mar 08 15:32:22 <vapier> KingTaco: no, i'm with you on that
Mar 08 15:32:49 <kingtaco|work> while everyones blood pressure is up, we may as well talk about things like devrel, mailing lists and nettiquette
Mar 08 15:32:51 <kloeri> that's fine
Mar 08 15:32:56 <wolf31o2|mobile> heh
Mar 08 15:33:11 <wolf31o2|mobile> I picked the wrong week to quit huffing rubber cement
Mar 08 15:33:13 <kingtaco|work> first
Mar 08 15:33:14 <vapier> my blood pressure is throbbing
Mar 08 15:33:23 <kingtaco|work> I think we need a vote of confidence in devrel
Mar 08 15:33:31 <Kugelfang> do we?
Mar 08 15:33:39 <kingtaco|work> I think maybe that'll help them start to enforce our netiquette
Mar 08 15:33:39 <vapier> along what lines ?
Mar 08 15:33:40 * windzor_ (n=windzor@82.143.229.82) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:33:47 <kingtaco|work> I worded that wrong
Mar 08 15:33:54 <vapier> yeah you did ;)
Mar 08 15:33:57 <kingtaco|work> here's what I want to say
Mar 08 15:34:08 <kingtaco|work> I want devrel to start enforing netiquette
Mar 08 15:34:15 <kingtaco|work> I don't care if people scream cabal
Mar 08 15:34:16 <g2boojum> kingtaco|work: Better would be a notion of what you actually want them to enforce.
Mar 08 15:34:18 <kloeri> well, there's a reason we don't try to ban people
Mar 08 15:34:20 <kingtaco|work> I don't care if people leave
Mar 08 15:34:24 * blubb (n=blubb@gentoo/developer/blubb) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:34:28 <vapier> be our wordstappo
Mar 08 15:34:29 <kingtaco|work> I want a pleasant gentoo
Mar 08 15:34:37 <kloeri> devrel doesn't believe it's going to help and it does nothing to solve the real problem imo
Mar 08 15:34:39 <Kugelfang> vapier: precisely...
Mar 08 15:34:50 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, and what are we going to do about that
Mar 08 15:34:55 <kingtaco|work> do you need more people?
Mar 08 15:35:01 <kingtaco|work> what can we do to help
Mar 08 15:35:06 <kingtaco|work> it's devrel's job
Mar 08 15:35:15 <kloeri> it removes people but the real problem is that people don't behave politely/properly/whatever
Mar 08 15:35:19 * christel holds up hand
Mar 08 15:35:24 <kingtaco|work> hahah
Mar 08 15:35:29 <kingtaco|work> talking through +m I see
Mar 08 15:35:33 * kingtaco|work gives voice to christel
Mar 08 15:35:34 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: nothing... that's freedom of speech and freedom of action. If people want to behave like morons in public there is very little you can do about it
Mar 08 15:35:40 <christel> thanks kingtaco|work :)
Mar 08 15:35:47 <wolf31o2|mobile> kloeri: banning people from the lists, not necessarily... but reducing the requirements on devrel to suspend "repeat offenders" might just make them think about their actions before doing them, and that could decrease the flames a bit
Mar 08 15:35:53 <kloeri> I don't know how to solve this problem as we have a hell of a lot of devs that happily attack other people and then refuses to accept that behaviour is part of the problem
Mar 08 15:35:58 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, you are mistaken if you think there is absolute freedom around here
Mar 08 15:36:06 <wolf31o2|mobile> kloeri: suspend said devs
Mar 08 15:36:22 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, also your interpitation of free speech is incorrect
Mar 08 15:36:24 <wolf31o2|mobile> I know on at least one occasion I probably should have been suspended... heh
Mar 08 15:36:28 <christel> i believe (as devrel and conflict res) that we need more defined chain of command, responsibility and *abilities* for devrel and crp to be able to execute anything at all
Mar 08 15:36:31 <kloeri> there's some devs that are persistently poisoning the project that I want to deal with but that's not just related to mailinglists
Mar 08 15:36:37 <kingtaco|work> you're free to say whatever, not you're free to say whatever on my soapbox
Mar 08 15:36:38 <kloeri> wolf31o2|mobile: and users?
Mar 08 15:36:48 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: so, how do you control non-devs on public mailing lists?
Mar 08 15:36:52 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: banning won't work
Mar 08 15:36:59 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I have an idea for that
Mar 08 15:37:05 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: moderation?
Mar 08 15:37:08 <kingtaco|work> no
Mar 08 15:37:11 <kingtaco|work> I hate moderation
Mar 08 15:37:16 <Kugelfang> me too
Mar 08 15:37:22 <kingtaco|work> so
Mar 08 15:37:24 <kloeri> gentoo being as open as possible is one of our core values imo and one of the things that define our community
Mar 08 15:37:30 <wolf31o2|mobile> kloeri: I have no answer for users
Mar 08 15:37:33 <kloeri> I'd rather not do anything to hurt that
Mar 08 15:37:42 <christel> i believe bans should be a very very last resort, but at the same time i believe that the etiquette policy should be enforced (ie. warn warn suspend or similar)
Mar 08 15:37:51 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, but it's being hurt none the less
Mar 08 15:38:04 <vapier> there's also the issue of leading by example
Mar 08 15:38:21 <Kugelfang> vapier: yeah, seemant had nice blog posts on those
Mar 08 15:38:32 <wolf31o2|mobile> christel: agreed... I think we need to be a bit more strict on our developers... after all, in the flames involving users, developers are just as much at fault as the users... perhaps if the devs didn't respond in kind, the flames would subside much quicker, etc
Mar 08 15:38:35 <kloeri> kingtaco|work: yes, but should we hurt it more?
Mar 08 15:38:42 <vapier> i think if we were all to act like g2boojum ...
Mar 08 15:38:45 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, I'd argue that you'd hurt it less
Mar 08 15:38:53 <christel> wolf31o2|mobile: yeah
Mar 08 15:38:54 * g2boojum blushes
Mar 08 15:39:14 <christel> one of the things i think is important is that whomever sits at the top of a chain of command plays no favours
Mar 08 15:39:17 <kingtaco|work> shit, work IRQ, continue discussing, I'll be back in 3
Mar 08 15:39:39 <wolf31o2|mobile> right
Mar 08 15:39:39 <g2boojum> christel: Um, the etiquette guide is actually a bit too broad, and possibly insufficiently vague.  You don't really want to ban somebody for messing up the ChangeLog, but that's in that guide.
Mar 08 15:40:00 <wolf31o2|mobile> so should we work together to have the guide updated?
Mar 08 15:40:14 <christel> g2boojum: yes, i believe that if it was to be enforced it needs to be revised and be very very very clear on what goes and what doesnt
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Mar 08 15:41:14 <Kugelfang> christel: do you think you could write it up?
Mar 08 15:41:26 <kloeri> I don't want to ban anybody but I do want to be much harder on devs poisoning things consistently and I'm going to file at least one devrel bug in that regard
Mar 08 15:41:31 <christel> i can certainly give it a try and come up with a proposal
Mar 08 15:41:31 <Kugelfang> christel: in say, 14 days? SO we can discuss it next month?
Mar 08 15:41:55 <kloeri> one of the problems (as always) is that it's damn hard to punish devs due to our policies
Mar 08 15:42:04 * ndansmith (n=ndansmit@c-67-168-234-215.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 15:42:27 <kingtaco|work> http://lwn.net/Articles/224615/
Mar 08 15:42:27 <vapier> is it ?
Mar 08 15:42:29 <christel> perhaps in light of the effects our current style has on the project it may be worth revisiting whether our current policies are the best ones for the projects future health
Mar 08 15:42:30 * kloeri gives voice to seemant
Mar 08 15:42:31 <wolf31o2|mobile> kloeri: then the policies should be modified... and I think we'd support that
Mar 08 15:42:32 <vapier> or is it a matter of reluctance
Mar 08 15:42:35 <kingtaco|work> btw, that's how we're represented
Mar 08 15:42:38 <seemant> thanks kloeri
Mar 08 15:42:39 <g2boojum> christel: I actually think you want it to be more vague than specific.  "Don't be a jerk."  Please don't define "jerk", or you get a five-page treatise on why the bahavior doesn't really fit the definition.
Mar 08 15:42:56 <christel> g2boojum: no, dont worry :)
Mar 08 15:42:57 <kingtaco|work> something for all of us to chew on
Mar 08 15:43:04 <seemant> I just wanted to add that ubuntu's code of conduct document seems to be frequently cited as a starting point
Mar 08 15:43:05 <kloeri> policies are currently aiming at being fair to everybody and not too inefficient
Mar 08 15:43:22 <seemant> but yes, what I wanted to really say, g2boojum said very nicely :)
Mar 08 15:43:25 <christel> seemant: yeah, thats one that popped to mind as one to look at before writing a proposal, thanks though :)
Mar 08 15:43:26 <kloeri> which means it's still likely to take at least a month I guess to process any serious devrel complaint
Mar 08 15:43:37 <seemant> we really need to be careful in adopting document upon document upon document
Mar 08 15:43:38 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, your devrel process is too long
Mar 08 15:43:54 <seemant> honestly, a streamlined doc would go far better, imho
Mar 08 15:43:57 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: that's acutally quite pointy (and a bit funny)
Mar 08 15:43:59 <kingtaco|work> you need a way to reach a decision in hours or days, not weeks
Mar 08 15:44:10 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, pointy?
Mar 08 15:44:17 <kloeri> kingtaco|work: yes, I'd probably agree with that but it's hard defining a good policy as we still want to be fair I believe
Mar 08 15:44:27 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: sorry, looking it up
Mar 08 15:44:33 <christel> i think for the most part it can be made pretty simple..
Mar 08 15:44:38 <seemant> and, as beandog has mentioned -- the forums are fairly moderated but there isn't a standard set of guidelines for doing so
Mar 08 15:44:44 <christel> respect, common sense and no asshattery :)
Mar 08 15:44:51 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: poignant
Mar 08 15:45:03 <seemant> christel: essentially, yes
Mar 08 15:45:03 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: or keen
Mar 08 15:45:37 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, being a devrel member through both of ciaranms firings and a bunch of other shit I've had an in depth look at it
Mar 08 15:45:48 <kingtaco|work> not saying that dmwaters or fmccor ran it any better
Mar 08 15:45:50 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: hu?
Mar 08 15:46:00 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: i was refering to the lwn thing
Mar 08 15:46:06 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, oh
Mar 08 15:46:14 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, yes, it's a fucking shame
Mar 08 15:46:18 <robbat2> on the side of devrel not having 'teeth' - kloeri mentioned before that infra previously wasn't very responsive to requests to do things (he cited a userrel request to remove user from the ML)
Mar 08 15:46:18 <kingtaco|work> but it's true
Mar 08 15:46:26 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: i find it humorous, and i guess the author too
Mar 08 15:46:37 <kloeri> I think the current policy is much better than what we've had before and devrel is doing much more to stop flames also (even though most of our work isn't public)
Mar 08 15:46:59 <kloeri> there's still room for quite a bit of improvement though imo
Mar 08 15:47:33 <kloeri> robbat2: that's one of the problems - it's no use having to wait for infra for 2-3 weeks as has happened in the past
Mar 08 15:47:45 <wolf31o2|mobile> if infra is the holdup, can we get some scripts to allow devrel to do some of these tasks themselves?
Mar 08 15:47:45 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, tbh, I haven't seen devrel do anything to cut down the flames
Mar 08 15:47:52 <kingtaco|work> infra isn't the hold up
Mar 08 15:47:55 <kingtaco|work> I'm infra
Mar 08 15:48:06 <kingtaco|work> don't pwn it off on infra
Mar 08 15:48:07 <wolf31o2|mobile> I did prefix that with an "if"
Mar 08 15:48:08 <wolf31o2|mobile> :P
Mar 08 15:48:19 <kingtaco|work> it may have been the problem in the past, it's certainly no longer the case
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Mar 08 15:48:37 <kloeri> infra has been the holdup in the past and several people have simply given up on enforcing things if infra is involved because of past experience
Mar 08 15:48:47 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 15:48:47 <robbat2> kingtaco|work, I think it's more of a problem of previous infra people. Ramereth's TODO list is a few miles long
Mar 08 15:48:58 <christel> yeah, i must admit ive stopped going to infra due to 'no's :x
Mar 08 15:49:09 <kingtaco|work> here's me as infra telling you we're waiting for devrel to tell us their enforcement stuff
Mar 08 15:49:19 <christel> but that is as much my fault (for not fighting it) as anyone elses
Mar 08 15:49:20 <kingtaco|work> understood?
Mar 08 15:49:36 <kingtaco|work> let whatever happened in the past lie
Mar 08 15:49:38 <kloeri> I'm still not going to ban people as I think that's a horrible idea :)
Mar 08 15:49:45 <Kugelfang> any examples?
Mar 08 15:50:02 <kloeri> but I'm most certainly going to smack down on devs causing problems all the time
Mar 08 15:50:02 <christel> kingtaco|work: are infra in a position to act on devrels request or will infra still overrule a devrel decision? :)
Mar 08 15:50:03 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, we're not asking you to ban people
Mar 08 15:50:23 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, we're telling you to implement something that will cut down on flaming
Mar 08 15:50:26 <christel> kingtaco|work: i believe marienz has a couple of things he'd like to say
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Mar 08 15:50:33 * Kugelfang gives voice to marienz
Mar 08 15:50:42 <marienz> oh, heh.
Mar 08 15:50:58 <kingtaco|work> christel, infra has never "overruled" devrel, knock it off.  we've told you that some thing are simply infeasable
Mar 08 15:51:02 <christel> i have a question, if we are to start enforcing etiquette policy, i think we may want to ensure we have one which also cover users
Mar 08 15:51:07 <marienz> from a userrel pov instead of a devrel pov: we filed at least one bug against infra that wasn't not acted on because they had no time, but because they thought it was a bad idea.
Mar 08 15:51:12 <kloeri> kingtaco|work: one possible idea that came up was to delay messages of people contributing to flames instead of banning them but I have no idea if that's possible at all
Mar 08 15:51:23 <christel> kingtaco|work: actually, i believe it was more 'we think its stupid' :)
Mar 08 15:51:38 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, I think wolf31o2 can answer that, he's been helping with the ML stuff
Mar 08 15:51:48 <Kugelfang> marienz: bug #?
Mar 08 15:51:52 <seemant> christel: just for gentoofication of guidelines, the forums people use these (thanks tomk): https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-525.html and https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-120351.html
Mar 08 15:51:54 <marienz> I'm not sure if that has happened to devrel requests or not
Mar 08 15:52:04 <marienz> Kugelfang: the dev-help ml one, let me look it up...
Mar 08 15:52:10 <christel> thank you seemant
Mar 08 15:52:12 <kingtaco|work> christel, what did I just say about letting the past lie?
Mar 08 15:52:14 <wolf31o2|mobile> I don't think it is
Mar 08 15:52:27 <marienz> Kugelfang: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130886
Mar 08 15:52:28 <christel> kingtaco|work: i was just correcting you ;)
Mar 08 15:52:50 <christel> (and im still waiting for you to answer my question)
Mar 08 15:53:11 <kingtaco|work> which question? infra overruling devrel?
Mar 08 15:53:15 <christel> kingtaco|work: yeah
Mar 08 15:53:17 <kingtaco|work> my answer was that we don't
Mar 08 15:53:19 <seemant> christel: was that from this current generation of infra people or the prior? (just curious)
Mar 08 15:53:29 <christel> kingtaco|work: excellent, thank you
Mar 08 15:53:29 <kingtaco|work> we tell you if your requested action is infeasable
Mar 08 15:53:36 <marienz> (can't tell you if devrel hit this kind of thing too, but figured I'd mention it)
Mar 08 15:53:39 <christel> seemant: i wasnt aware they had changed :)
Mar 08 15:53:45 <seemant> (just noting that TNG is palpably different)
Mar 08 15:53:54 <kingtaco|work> christel, we can't squeeze blood from stone
Mar 08 15:53:58 <christel> (i know theres a couple of additions to the team, which perhaps makes change for the better)
Mar 08 15:54:18 <g2boojum> christel: Assume that if you didn't deal w/ kingtaco|work, it's changed.
Mar 08 15:54:32 <christel> kingtaco|work: im not trying to pick on you, im just wanting to know that if we need to we can
Mar 08 15:54:44 <seemant> ..pick on them?
Mar 08 15:54:46 <kingtaco|work> but if you make a request as devrel to infra that we can do, IMO infra is obligated to attempt to do it
Mar 08 15:54:47 <christel> because that well, makes a fair bit of difference to how devrel can work with issues
Mar 08 15:55:02 <christel> and it sounds like that is the case, for which i am glad to have clarification :)
Mar 08 15:55:28 <kingtaco|work> so
Mar 08 15:55:55 <vapier> what are we looking for to get started then
Mar 08 15:55:59 <kingtaco|work> do we need to vote that devrel needs to take a more active role in stopping flamewars and whatnot?
Mar 08 15:56:07 <kingtaco|work> oh
Mar 08 15:56:09 <kingtaco|work> one last thing
Mar 08 15:56:11 <wolf31o2|mobile> correct, infra should be doing what devrel recommends, except in cases where it is infeasible
Mar 08 15:56:23 <kingtaco|work> the "how do we deal with users" question someone asked
Mar 08 15:56:27 <kingtaco|work> it's quite simple
Mar 08 15:56:29 <christel> i will wite a proposal for a more clear etiquette policy, and i will aim to have it ready for review in approximately 2 weeks from today
Mar 08 15:56:36 <kingtaco|work> we don't accept work they contributed to
Mar 08 15:56:40 <Kugelfang> christel: thx
Mar 08 15:56:40 <kingtaco|work> even if that hurts us
Mar 08 15:56:46 <wolf31o2|mobile> I think kloeri agreeing to it would be enough, since he'd be the one pushing it within devrel
Mar 08 15:56:46 <vapier> while that would be the ultimate goal, i dont want devrel suddenly stomping on everyone's nuts
Mar 08 15:56:47 <christel> would you prefer me to send it to -dev or -core for peer-review prior to next council meeting?
Mar 08 15:56:58 <vapier> so a more gentle approach should be implied
Mar 08 15:56:58 <wolf31o2|mobile> christel: -dev
Mar 08 15:57:05 <kingtaco|work> vapier, the council explicily monitors devrel
Mar 08 15:57:13 <kingtaco|work> devrel is responsible to the council
Mar 08 15:57:14 <christel> vapier: no, i think we'd be careful not to go mad and start chuck norrising all over the place
Mar 08 15:57:18 <christel> wolf31o2|mobile: ok :)
Mar 08 15:57:24 <kingtaco|work> so if they fuck up we can stop them
Mar 08 15:57:28 <wolf31o2|mobile> and the council is the "escalation" point for devrel... not that anybody's ever come to us... heh
Mar 08 15:57:39 <Kugelfang> wolf31o2|mobile: we can still hide
Mar 08 15:57:43 <wolf31o2|mobile> heh
Mar 08 15:57:43 <Kugelfang> wolf31o2|mobile: ;-)
Mar 08 15:57:54 <vapier> kingtaco|laptop: i'm not worried about oversight, i'm worried about initial reaction
Mar 08 15:58:06 <christel> wolf31o2|mobile: for the most part things doesnt even come to us (not per the policy type route anyhow)
Mar 08 15:58:13 <kloeri> heh
Mar 08 15:58:13 <wolf31o2|mobile> yeah
Mar 08 15:58:23 <kingtaco|work> vapier, ok, then lets vote to "authorize" devrel to form a plan and then enact it to cut down on the flamwars
Mar 08 15:58:33 <wolf31o2|mobile> that sounds good
Mar 08 15:58:35 <christel> vapier: i believe it needs to be a slow and transparent process to put into place rather than a overnight change
Mar 08 15:58:45 <christel> transparency being important i think
Mar 08 15:58:54 <vapier> that wording sounds too specific and doesnt address the underlying issue
Mar 08 15:59:07 <kingtaco|work> ok, vote: devrel is charges with the task of planning and implementing anti flamewar measures
Mar 08 15:59:09 <vapier> common courtesy to thy fellow developer
Mar 08 15:59:19 <kingtaco|work> s/charges/charged
Mar 08 15:59:25 <kingtaco|work> I vote yes
Mar 08 15:59:26 <wolf31o2|mobile> right... it isn't to cut down on flames, it's to cut down on the overall bad attitudes and actions
Mar 08 15:59:29 <Kugelfang> i like vapier's wording more
Mar 08 15:59:32 <wolf31o2|mobile> yes
Mar 08 15:59:34 <kloeri> devrel is doing a lot of conflict resolution type stuff before things even manages to blow up but a lot of it starts out by devs and/or users contacting me in private using /query and it's usually much easier handling these things in private so that's why you don't generally see a lot of devrel action
Mar 08 15:59:37 <vapier> if that's seriously what the vote is worded, then i vote no
Mar 08 15:59:57 <kingtaco|work> ok how do you want to word it?
Mar 08 16:00:21 <wolf31o2|mobile> s/anti flamewar/common courtesy/ ?
Mar 08 16:00:32 <kingtaco|work> netiquette?
Mar 08 16:00:35 <wolf31o2|mobile> sure
Mar 08 16:00:58 <kingtaco|work> vapier, ?
Mar 08 16:01:15 <kloeri> I don't think we can force people to follow netiquette in general but we can do more to smack devs up when they're constantly being a pain in the ass
Mar 08 16:01:44 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, that's up to devrel and for the most part outside of the scope of this meeting
Mar 08 16:02:00 <kingtaco|work> vapier, ......
Mar 08 16:02:06 <vapier> did we end up with netique from last time ?
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Mar 08 16:02:09 <kingtaco|work> don't make me call your mom
Mar 08 16:02:11 <wolf31o2|mobile> but yes, I agree, kloeri
Mar 08 16:02:17 <vapier> cant seem to find it in the devrel pages
Mar 08 16:02:21 <kloeri> one of the problems with the current flames is that quite a few devs think they're doing just fine where as others (me included) think they're just adding to the flames
Mar 08 16:02:27 <kingtaco|work> vapier, we can call it netiquette
Mar 08 16:02:43 <wolf31o2|mobile> I have to leave in ~30 ...
Mar 08 16:02:48 <vapier> kingtaco|work: i'm asking if we have an existing social policy on being nice
Mar 08 16:02:50 <kloeri> there's an etiquette policy part in the developers handbook
Mar 08 16:02:54 <kingtaco|work> vapier, sort of
Mar 08 16:03:02 <vapier> URL ?
Mar 08 16:03:03 <kingtaco|work> I think it's outdated and incomplete
Mar 08 16:03:17 <kloeri> covering irc, forums and mail but needing some updates and/or a rewrite I guess
Mar 08 16:03:22 <g2boojum> vapier: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=2
Mar 08 16:03:23 <kloeri> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=2
Mar 08 16:03:23 <vapier> then we charge devrel with updating it
Mar 08 16:03:31 <vapier> which christel and kloeri seem to want to do
Mar 08 16:03:43 <kingtaco|work> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=2
Mar 08 16:03:45 <vapier> and as an addon, if we're to lead by example, we need to start doing so
Mar 08 16:03:46 <kloeri> yes, I'd be quite happy to work on that
Mar 08 16:03:51 <wolf31o2|mobile> yeah
Mar 08 16:03:56 <vapier> aka charge ourselves to rise above
Mar 08 16:03:57 <kingtaco|work> vapier, yes
Mar 08 16:04:10 <wolf31o2|mobile> I've been trying to shut up on threads, since I've definitely been a part of the problem in the past
Mar 08 16:04:11 <Kugelfang> vapier: that will be hard for you, won't it? ;-)
Mar 08 16:04:22 <vapier> i'm sure you can find plenty of examples of me being petty 
Mar 08 16:04:27 <kingtaco|work> ok, vote: charge devrel to update it's netiquette policy and start enforcing it
Mar 08 16:04:31 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 16:04:33 <wolf31o2|mobile> yes
Mar 08 16:04:40 <UberL> yes
Mar 08 16:04:42 <Kugelfang> vapier: *cuddle*
Mar 08 16:04:44 <vapier> ... and for us to do better by example ;p
Mar 08 16:04:48 <Kugelfang> yes
Mar 08 16:04:51 <kloeri> enforce it how?
Mar 08 16:04:55 <christel> i plead guilty and accept the charge :)
Mar 08 16:04:57 <UberL> suspension?
Mar 08 16:05:02 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, that's up to you
Mar 08 16:05:05 <christel> kloeri: in what means we see necessary i'd say
Mar 08 16:05:06 <kloeri> I'm all for enforcing it if I knew how
Mar 08 16:05:08 <kingtaco|work> infra is willing to work with you
Mar 08 16:05:15 <wolf31o2|mobile> kloeri: depends on what you do w/ the policy... we have faith in you... I'd say suspension
Mar 08 16:05:19 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, you could also put out a RFC
Mar 08 16:05:22 <christel> im still thinking warn warn suspend/time-out is doable
Mar 08 16:05:32 <kloeri> suspension can only be applied to devs though
Mar 08 16:05:37 <kingtaco|work> personally I like christels idea
Mar 08 16:05:43 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, non devs is easy
Mar 08 16:05:44 <kloeri> which I'm quite happy to do
Mar 08 16:05:51 <Kugelfang> kloeri: non-devs is the hardest part
Mar 08 16:05:58 <kingtaco|work> if they are in violation, don't accept any contributions from them
Mar 08 16:05:59 <Kugelfang> sorry, kingtaco|work ^^^
Mar 08 16:06:01 <vapier> include it as part of the revamp and to get input on
Mar 08 16:06:04 <kloeri> heh, glad you agree :)
Mar 08 16:06:06 <Kugelfang> too many ^k.* in here
Mar 08 16:06:12 <kingtaco|work> yeah
Mar 08 16:06:16 <wolf31o2|mobile> right... but remember that in *all* of these flamewars/problems, devs are usually involved... it's never really a case of two users going at it, that I've ever seen
Mar 08 16:06:24 <Kugelfang> vote: renamed kingtaco to tacoking
Mar 08 16:06:24 <kingtaco|work> ok, I think this is settled for now
Mar 08 16:06:26 <kloeri> wolf31o2|mobile: agreed
Mar 08 16:06:27 <Kugelfang> -d
Mar 08 16:06:30 * kingtaco|work is now known as tacoking
Mar 08 16:06:46 * tacoking is now known as kingtaco|work
Mar 08 16:06:57 <vapier> so we're in agreement on that final wording + addon ?
Mar 08 16:06:57 <kingtaco|work> alreadt took
Mar 08 16:07:01 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 16:07:20 <kingtaco|work> ok, next item on agenda
Mar 08 16:07:27 <kloeri> ok, lets see if we can revamp etiquette policy and hopefully come up with some reasonable way of enforcing it
Mar 08 16:07:28 <kingtaco|work> I'll hold my hardware stuff til last
Mar 08 16:07:37 <kingtaco|work> as we can deal with it next month if needed
Mar 08 16:07:57 <kingtaco|work> wolf31o2, "power the council should have"
Mar 08 16:08:11 * kingtaco|work removes voice from christel marienz seemant
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Mar 08 16:08:29 <Kugelfang> back in a min
Mar 08 16:08:40 <kingtaco|work> wolf31o2|mobile, you got the floor
Mar 08 16:09:07 <wolf31o2|mobile> yeah... earlier I suggested a concept where each member of the Council is able to make decisions as if they were the sole "leader" of Gentoo... we would need to come up with a couple exceptions, new GLEPs come to mind... but basically, each council member can act alone...
Mar 08 16:09:16 <wolf31o2|mobile> and the council as a whole is the appeals board for anything
Mar 08 16:10:27 <wolf31o2|mobile> I think it would keep us from burning out a single leader, yet still give us the ability to make fast decisions without them having to go through committee
Mar 08 16:10:39 <Kugelfang> which can be revoked
Mar 08 16:10:46 <Kugelfang> i favour that
Mar 08 16:11:02 <UberL> should only be for things that can be revoked
Mar 08 16:11:28 <robbat2> i don't like a single person being able to do that, but I wouldn't object to having two council members that agree on it
Mar 08 16:11:33 <robbat2> also adds a slight sanity check
Mar 08 16:11:41 <Kugelfang> less bureaucracy is a good thing
Mar 08 16:11:41 <wolf31o2|mobile> I'm fine with it being two
Mar 08 16:11:45 <kingtaco|work> I like having 2 as well
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Mar 08 16:11:49 <wolf31o2|mobile> main point being it allows for much quicker decisions
Mar 08 16:11:50 <Kugelfang> nod
Mar 08 16:11:59 <kloeri> two people sounds good
Mar 08 16:12:22 <vapier> and the requirement that any such decisions be noted at the next meeting
Mar 08 16:12:29 <Kugelfang> it's similar to the romans' consuls
Mar 08 16:12:38 <kingtaco|work> documented immedatly to council@ and next meeting
Mar 08 16:12:39 <kloeri> vapier: agreed
Mar 08 16:12:49 <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed
Mar 08 16:12:52 <kingtaco|work> if you invoke uber powers, you should document it as soon as reasonable
Mar 08 16:13:05 <vapier> do we have a council mailing list ?
Mar 08 16:13:07 * UberL flexes his UberPowers
Mar 08 16:13:20 <robbat2> there was one that is gathering dust somewhere
Mar 08 16:13:23 <Kugelfang> vote: 2 council member my decide on their own w/o council in between meetings. decission need to be mailed to council@g.o immediately and can be revoked by the whole council
Mar 08 16:13:23 <vapier> then immediate action is to drop a line on the council mailing list and to bring it up at next meeting
Mar 08 16:13:31 <Kugelfang> may
Mar 08 16:13:35 * UberL nods
Mar 08 16:13:37 <vapier> i'd prefer we use the alias less
Mar 08 16:13:40 <kingtaco|work> vapier, I think we do
Mar 08 16:13:45 <vapier> maybe even subscribe it to the mailing list ;)
Mar 08 16:13:47 <kloeri> list is better imo
Mar 08 16:13:49 <kingtaco|work> it may have been disbanded
Mar 08 16:13:53 <vapier> it hasnt
Mar 08 16:13:55 <kingtaco|work> we could use list
Mar 08 16:14:00 <kingtaco|work> I have no preference
Mar 08 16:14:22 <wolf31o2|mobile> list is fine
Mar 08 16:14:23 <Kugelfang> list is public... so list instead of alias
Mar 08 16:14:29 <robbat2> can we keep the alias for the private bits? (eg sharing our contact information when we started)
Mar 08 16:14:29 <wolf31o2|mobile> I'd have to subscribe to it
Mar 08 16:14:29 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, only chair may call the vote :p
Mar 08 16:14:40 <wolf31o2|mobile> right, alias for private, list for everything else
Mar 08 16:14:40 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: do we have one?
Mar 08 16:14:47 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I'm chair this month
Mar 08 16:14:50 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: haha
Mar 08 16:14:57 <kingtaco|work> it's whomever leads the meeting
Mar 08 16:14:59 <vapier> so stop talking and ask for it
Mar 08 16:15:01 * robbat2 sits on kingtaco|work 
Mar 08 16:15:02 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 16:15:10 <robbat2> he said he was the chair!
Mar 08 16:15:12 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: primus inter pares, hm?
Mar 08 16:15:27 <kingtaco|work> vote: 2 council members may act with executive authority with the understanding that they must document immediatlly to council ML
Mar 08 16:15:36 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I don't know latin :)
Mar 08 16:15:53 <wolf31o2|mobile> ... and appeals go to the council as a whole
Mar 08 16:15:55 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: first among equals
Mar 08 16:15:58 <robbat2> it means "first among equals"
Mar 08 16:15:58 <kingtaco|work> ah
Mar 08 16:16:12 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, you can be it next month if you like
Mar 08 16:16:17 <kingtaco|work> I just like leading meetings
Mar 08 16:16:18 <Kugelfang> no thanks
Mar 08 16:16:44 <wolf31o2|mobile> so, vote on what taco said + addendum ?
Mar 08 16:16:44 * The_Paya (i=the_paya@gentoo/developer/thepaya) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 16:16:53 <Kugelfang> yes
Mar 08 16:16:55 <kloeri> yes
Mar 08 16:16:56 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 16:16:58 <UberL> yes
Mar 08 16:17:00 <robbat2> yes
Mar 08 16:17:07 <wolf31o2|mobile> yes
Mar 08 16:17:16 <vapier> yes
Mar 08 16:17:22 <Kugelfang> nice
Mar 08 16:17:24 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 16:17:26 <wolf31o2|mobile> very
Mar 08 16:17:26 <kingtaco|work> passed
Mar 08 16:17:34 <kingtaco|work> oh, one more thing real quick
Mar 08 16:17:41 <kingtaco|work> the tr1 virtuals from last month
Mar 08 16:17:51 <wolf31o2|mobile> ooh... almost forgot about that one
Mar 08 16:18:13 <kingtaco|work> and maybe one more thing after that
Mar 08 16:18:19 <kingtaco|work> anyone have anything on the tr1 stuff?
Mar 08 16:18:29 <kingtaco|work> I'll call the same vote I did last month
Mar 08 16:18:57 <Kugelfang> that was? (I wasn't there if you recall)
Mar 08 16:19:00 <kingtaco|work> vote: have tr1-{memory,pointer,foo,bar,blah} virtuals until there is a sane implementation
Mar 08 16:19:23 <kloeri> I still think the virtuals are the best solution currently
Mar 08 16:19:30 <kingtaco|work> as the virtuals are clearly a work around for 2 sucky ijmplementations
Mar 08 16:19:56 <kingtaco|work> I vote yes(I still wish we could use a eclass)
Mar 08 16:20:14 <wolf31o2|mobile> yes
Mar 08 16:20:21 <kloeri> yes
Mar 08 16:20:23 <robbat2> yes
Mar 08 16:20:24 <vapier> yes
Mar 08 16:20:32 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, UberL
Mar 08 16:20:56 <UberL> i don't have an opinion on that sorry
Mar 08 16:20:57 * aballier (n=alexis@dra13-1-82-232-126-136.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 16:21:12 <Kugelfang> hrm
Mar 08 16:21:25 <kingtaco|work> well, we already have a majority
Mar 08 16:21:40 <vapier> why dont you just tell them their opinion doesnt matter
Mar 08 16:21:42 <kingtaco|work> so you can exclude yourself if you like
Mar 08 16:21:46 <Kugelfang> yes
Mar 08 16:21:53 <kingtaco|work> ok, accepted
Mar 08 16:22:21 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, since its you paludis type who want the virtuals, you're in charge of getting them setup in a way that doesn't piss off everyone
Mar 08 16:22:25 <Kugelfang> i was reading the february log... wanted to know why this has been postponed
Mar 08 16:22:33 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: haha
Mar 08 16:22:38 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: will do
Mar 08 16:22:42 <kingtaco|work> so flameeyes could find out how many packages would use them
Mar 08 16:22:52 <Kugelfang> ah
Mar 08 16:23:00 <kingtaco|work> but that no longer applies
Mar 08 16:23:08 <kingtaco|work> ok, 2 more things
Mar 08 16:23:23 <kingtaco|work> it was pointed out to me that people want us to discuss splitting of mailing lists
Mar 08 16:23:35 <kingtaco|work> the id is  <45EC8028.4010004@gentoo.org>
Mar 08 16:23:54 <kingtaco|work> we should probably kick it to next month as it relates to the devrel stuff from before
Mar 08 16:23:59 <wolf31o2|mobile> agreed
Mar 08 16:24:06 <vapier> splitting ?
Mar 08 16:24:08 <wolf31o2|mobile> (and I'm running out of time and kinda brought up the subject)
Mar 08 16:24:13 <kingtaco|work> splitting
Mar 08 16:24:14 <Kugelfang> i think we should do it right now
Mar 08 16:24:17 <wolf31o2|mobile> having an announce list
Mar 08 16:24:23 <kingtaco|work> gentoo-dev-announce and whatnot
Mar 08 16:24:31 <kingtaco|work> gentoo-dev-user
Mar 08 16:24:34 <kingtaco|work> stuff like that
Mar 08 16:24:40 <vapier> sounds redundant
Mar 08 16:24:48 <vapier> we have an announce and a user list
Mar 08 16:24:55 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 16:25:01 <kingtaco|work> lets kick it til next month
Mar 08 16:25:04 <robbat2> ok
Mar 08 16:25:08 <Kugelfang> hrm
Mar 08 16:25:12 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, you could look at that discussion when doing your devrel stuff
Mar 08 16:25:14 <robbat2> so that leaves the gentoo hardware item that kingtaco had?
Mar 08 16:25:18 <kloeri> sure
Mar 08 16:25:18 <kingtaco|work> yes
Mar 08 16:25:27 <kingtaco|work> do we have time to discuss that now?
Mar 08 16:25:32 <Kugelfang> sure
Mar 08 16:25:38 <kingtaco|work> anyone gotta leave before 15 minutes?
Mar 08 16:25:41 <wolf31o2|mobile> me
Mar 08 16:25:46 <wolf31o2|mobile> but you know my vote on it
Mar 08 16:25:52 <wolf31o2|mobile> we already discussed it and I'm for it
Mar 08 16:25:52 <wolf31o2|mobile> heh
Mar 08 16:25:56 <kingtaco|work> heh
Mar 08 16:26:11 <kingtaco|work> will you others accept wolfs abscentee vote of yes?
Mar 08 16:26:48 <Kugelfang> that only matters if we have a draw, but yes
Mar 08 16:27:00 <kingtaco|work> anyone who won't?
Mar 08 16:27:09 <kingtaco|work> speak now or hold your tacos
Mar 08 16:27:10 <kloeri> yes, if he already discussed it
Mar 08 16:27:15 <kingtaco|work> we did
Mar 08 16:27:16 <kingtaco|work> fosdem :)
Mar 08 16:27:21 <kingtaco|work> and then amsterdam
Mar 08 16:27:42 <UberL> i am un-aware of the debate
Mar 08 16:27:49 * kingtaco|work pokes UberL vapier robbat2 
Mar 08 16:28:02 <robbat2> yes i'll accept an absentee vote of yes by wolf31o2, but I want to know the details myself
Mar 08 16:28:12 <vapier> that's fine
Mar 08 16:28:16 <kingtaco|work> UberL, it hasn't happened yet, wolf has to leave so our choices are to punt it til later or accept his vote of yes
Mar 08 16:28:21 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 16:28:25 <kingtaco|work> lets discuss
Mar 08 16:28:29 <UberL> i will accept his vote of yes
Mar 08 16:28:47 <kingtaco|work> so, people have been clamoring for the council to give some direction
Mar 08 16:28:51 <kingtaco|work> to gentoo
Mar 08 16:29:05 <kingtaco|work> this is where my 2 projects come in
Mar 08 16:29:31 <wolf31o2|mobile> I've got a couple projects myself, but I'll hold them off until next time so I can formulate them a bit better
Mar 08 16:30:02 <kingtaco|work> what I'd like to do is the following: gentoo branded hardware and gentoo certified hardware
Mar 08 16:30:12 <kingtaco|work> they are similar, but slightly different
Mar 08 16:30:25 <kingtaco|work> the rational is the same for both, but not the implementation
Mar 08 16:30:41 * avenj (n=avenj@gentoo/developer/avenj) has left #gentoo-council
Mar 08 16:30:45 <kingtaco|work> so lets talk about certified hardware first
Mar 08 16:31:21 <kingtaco|work> it would benefit gentoo greatly if OEMs gave an option to consumers to buy their product with gentoo preinstalled
Mar 08 16:31:54 <kingtaco|work> not only would we probably receive some sort of revenue stream(a item for the trustees) but it would help get our name out there
Mar 08 16:32:14 <kingtaco|work> it is also a stepping stone to "enterprise" gentoo
Mar 08 16:32:23 <kingtaco|work> or perhaps the result of that
Mar 08 16:32:28 <UberL> what would the revenue stream be used for?
Mar 08 16:32:35 <kingtaco|work> thats up to the trustees
Mar 08 16:32:38 <Kugelfang> up to the trustees
Mar 08 16:32:52 <kingtaco|work> I'd like to think it'd be used for furthering gentoo and linux development
Mar 08 16:33:09 <kingtaco|work> my goal is to get gentoo on more boxes
Mar 08 16:33:17 <kingtaco|work> not to make money
Mar 08 16:33:31 <robbat2> question here, as I see it already, there is nothing that stops anybody from shipping a box with Gentoo preinstalled
Mar 08 16:33:43 <kingtaco|work> nothing at all except they don't
Mar 08 16:33:52 <kingtaco|work> why do they ship redhat, suse, and ubuntu?
Mar 08 16:34:02 <kingtaco|work> I've even seen debian on the list beofre
Mar 08 16:34:24 <UberL> kingtaco|work: probably because you can buy 24x7 support contracts for them?>
Mar 08 16:34:26 <vapier> i think it'd be the other way around ... binary/enterprise Gentoo first, then shipping with Gentoo ...
Mar 08 16:34:39 <Kugelfang> i agree with UberL and vapier
Mar 08 16:34:56 <kingtaco|work> UberL, there are groups of developers offering that
Mar 08 16:34:58 <wolf31o2|mobile> later guys
Mar 08 16:35:03 <kingtaco|work> later wolf31o2
Mar 08 16:35:19 <Kugelfang> especially as (even portage devs say) current binary package support is not bug free
Mar 08 16:35:26 <kingtaco|work> I see a point in what vapier says
Mar 08 16:35:36 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, all the more reason to put eapi-0 behind us
Mar 08 16:35:46 <Kugelfang> nothing to do with EAPI=ß
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Mar 08 16:36:05 <kingtaco|work> anyway
Mar 08 16:36:48 <kingtaco|work> for any of this to happen we have to start cleaning up our tree
Mar 08 16:36:54 <kingtaco|work> specificly stable
Mar 08 16:37:12 <kingtaco|work> at the same time, we need to make sure we don't become debian
Mar 08 16:37:55 <kingtaco|work> I think many peoples focus here has been getting stuff into the tree as quickly as possible and then not doing a very good job maintaining said packages
Mar 08 16:38:00 <kingtaco|work> I'd like that to change
Mar 08 16:38:57 <kingtaco|work> so what I'd like to see gentoo do is stop focusing on putting every package under the sun into the tree and move towards security and stability in the main tree
Mar 08 16:39:04 <kingtaco|work> punt everything else to overlays
Mar 08 16:39:26 <kingtaco|work> I see that as the first step towards convincing OEMs to ship our distro
Mar 08 16:39:46 <robbat2> sorry, had work IRQ for a moment. there are some small vendors providing Gentoo out-of-the-box (and support for it), but basically they all have some connection to Gentoo already
Mar 08 16:39:57 <kingtaco|work> right
Mar 08 16:39:59 <UberL> i would rather the packages improved than punted. I dislike overlays
Mar 08 16:40:02 <kingtaco|work> I'm talking larger ones
Mar 08 16:40:04 <kloeri> I think that's a good idea but don't see how you can convince the developers of that
Mar 08 16:40:04 <kingtaco|work> like dell
Mar 08 16:40:13 <kingtaco|work> dell is looking for distros to certify their hardware
Mar 08 16:40:25 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, I'll just ask devrel to fire them
Mar 08 16:40:29 <vapier> i dont think it'll matter so long as there are no binaries shipping
Mar 08 16:40:32 <kloeri> heh
Mar 08 16:40:58 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, I'm serious, people want a direction and this is one.
Mar 08 16:40:59 <Kugelfang> overlays have a weak point
Mar 08 16:41:15 <Kugelfang> you can't properly defined deps on other overlays/repositories
Mar 08 16:41:18 <Kugelfang> -d
Mar 08 16:41:21 <kingtaco|work> eapi=1
Mar 08 16:41:25 <robbat2> i'm against punting stuff, because I see a LOT of stuff in the tree has been added because somebody had a short-time interest in a package
Mar 08 16:41:34 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: dude, EAPI is not a solution to all problems
Mar 08 16:41:45 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: remember genone's talk at fosdem?
Mar 08 16:41:50 <robbat2> even I'm guilty of that
Mar 08 16:41:53 <kingtaco|work> robbat2, punt it to an overlay or other divided section
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Mar 08 16:42:19 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, ok, redefine the entire package manager that we use
Mar 08 16:42:19 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: you have to move whole trees of packages into overlays
Mar 08 16:42:21 * yoshi_ (n=yoswink@177.Red-83-60-94.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #gentoo-council
Mar 08 16:42:25 <kingtaco|work> I don't care what you call it
Mar 08 16:42:35 <Kugelfang> i don't call it anything
Mar 08 16:42:38 <kloeri> kingtaco|work: I'd love to see developers pay more attention to stable packages, I'm just not sure how to convince others of it
Mar 08 16:42:42 <Kugelfang> EAPI is on ebuild level
Mar 08 16:42:44 <kingtaco|work> though I disagree that we can't change depend syntax with a eapi change
Mar 08 16:42:58 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: ok, example:
Mar 08 16:43:23 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: you use the proposed "::repository" suffix for deps as proposed by EAPI=1-foo
Mar 08 16:43:25 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, what I'd like to do is form a team of gentoo developers to investigate and document what changes should be made
Mar 08 16:43:56 <kingtaco|work> s/should/will
Mar 08 16:43:57 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: so libbar has DEPEND="libfoo::gentoo-overlay-a"
Mar 08 16:43:59 <kloeri> yup, we'd probably need a dedicated "stable" team I guess
Mar 08 16:43:59 <kingtaco|work> this is direction
Mar 08 16:44:15 <kingtaco|work> all developers would follow the direction
Mar 08 16:44:22 <kingtaco|work> it most certainly needs a glep
Mar 08 16:44:23 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: that will disabled you from using that package from any other overlays
Mar 08 16:44:51 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: do you see that this is no ebuild level problem but a repository level problem?
Mar 08 16:45:02 <robbat2> then there's breakage when a package moves from an overlay to the main tree?
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Mar 08 16:45:04 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, that's one implementation, yes.  I don't have an answer for you off the top of my head, though I've had many thoughts on how to partition the tree
Mar 08 16:45:21 <kingtaco|work> one is simply to define tree priority
Mar 08 16:45:33 <kingtaco|work> so try to resolve in a first, then in b, then c, and so on
Mar 08 16:45:44 <Kugelfang> that doesn't hit the point
Mar 08 16:46:29 <Kugelfang> how do you tell people that "if you want packages from overlay B, you need to sync overlays A, too"?
Mar 08 16:46:31 <kingtaco|work> I'm clearly missing your point, but it doesn't matter, we're not here to talk about those details, we're talking about if this is a direction we want to set for gentoo
Mar 08 16:46:46 <Kugelfang> that's not solvable by EAPI imho
Mar 08 16:46:54 <kingtaco|work> oppinion noted
Mar 08 16:47:01 <Kugelfang> and i'm on line with genone here i think, as he had that in his talk at fosdem
Mar 08 16:47:17 <kingtaco|work> so again I ask you, is this a direction we want to set for gentoo?\
Mar 08 16:47:23 <kingtaco|work> after glep and all that
Mar 08 16:47:28 <kingtaco|work> or am I wasteing my time
Mar 08 16:47:42 <Kugelfang> tree partioning? i doubt
Mar 08 16:47:47 <kingtaco|work> dude
Mar 08 16:47:51 <kingtaco|work> get off that already
Mar 08 16:47:52 <robbat2> i'd agree that picking stuff that is for more stable yes, but not the means you're going about it
Mar 08 16:48:05 <kingtaco|work> lemme define it in a sentence
Mar 08 16:48:09 <Kugelfang> please
Mar 08 16:48:26 <kingtaco|work> vote: gentoo's direction is security, stability, and then everything else
Mar 08 16:48:44 <Kugelfang> i'd say "stability, security and then everything else", in that order
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Mar 08 16:48:52 <robbat2> no
Mar 08 16:49:08 <Kugelfang> what is a secure but broken system good for?
Mar 08 16:49:12 <kingtaco|work> no to what, the vote or danny?
Mar 08 16:49:17 <robbat2> stability shouldn't block progress. temporarily delay maybe.
Mar 08 16:49:19 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, a doorstop
Mar 08 16:49:23 <kingtaco|work> :p
Mar 08 16:49:30 <robbat2> KingTaco, that's a no vote to your statement
Mar 08 16:49:53 <kingtaco|work> ok
Mar 08 16:50:03 <robbat2> else we risk the debian stability issue of everything getting slow
Mar 08 16:50:04 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: *g*
Mar 08 16:50:30 <kingtaco|work> vapier, UberL kloeri
Mar 08 16:50:35 <UberL> no
Mar 08 16:50:42 <Kugelfang> i have a different proposal
Mar 08 16:50:53 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, wait a sec until mine is voted down
Mar 08 16:50:57 <Kugelfang> will do
Mar 08 16:51:05 <kloeri> I'd like it to be one direction and not the only direction
Mar 08 16:51:06 <kingtaco|work> and you have to vote too
Mar 08 16:51:22 <Kugelfang> i don't
Mar 08 16:51:31 <Kugelfang> what's the proper term for that?
Mar 08 16:51:36 <kloeri> so have a stable/enterprise tree and then the current more uptodate tree
Mar 08 16:51:38 <kingtaco|work> er, you can abstain sure
Mar 08 16:51:42 <Kugelfang> abstain?
Mar 08 16:51:45 <Kugelfang> yes
Mar 08 16:51:46 <Kugelfang> i abstain
Mar 08 16:51:48 <kingtaco|work> it's the same as voting no though
Mar 08 16:51:57 <kingtaco|work> one more no?
Mar 08 16:52:27 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, rather, it has the same effect as voting no
Mar 08 16:52:27 <kloeri> my vote is no if it's to be _the_ direction
Mar 08 16:52:39 <kingtaco|work> ok, vote fails
Mar 08 16:52:48 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, you had an idea?
Mar 08 16:53:00 <Kugelfang> I'd like to propose to compilation of a list of essential packages
Mar 08 16:53:18 <kingtaco|work> for what purpose and how would you define essential
Mar 08 16:53:19 <Kugelfang> packages that should be treated with high care
Mar 08 16:53:24 <kingtaco|work> plus keep in mind wolf isn't here
Mar 08 16:53:26 <Kugelfang> and that should have two active maintainers
Mar 08 16:53:39 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, you mean stuff that's in sys-* ?
Mar 08 16:53:44 <Kugelfang> similar
Mar 08 16:53:53 <Kugelfang> kde-base and gnome-base is as important
Mar 08 16:53:56 <kingtaco|work> that's what I define as essential
Mar 08 16:54:10 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I completely disagree with you there
Mar 08 16:54:10 <Kugelfang> ok, maybe essential is the wrong wording
Mar 08 16:54:15 <kingtaco|work> yeah
Mar 08 16:54:22 <kingtaco|work> popular would be better
Mar 08 16:54:27 <Kugelfang> you proposed to move out "the cruft" to overlays
Mar 08 16:54:32 <kingtaco|work> widely used perhaps
Mar 08 16:54:47 <Kugelfang> i would like to have all of them in one reposository, but have higher standards for a subset
Mar 08 16:55:06 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, hrm
Mar 08 16:55:21 <kingtaco|work> I don't like the ideas of different standards but go on
Mar 08 16:56:05 <Kugelfang> in short: not all packages have two maintainers, and fixing bugs can be a pain when people don't want "strangers" to work on it
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Mar 08 16:56:29 <Kugelfang> but for a well-defined list of packages, every dev could fix open bugs after a latency of (e.g.) 2 days
Mar 08 16:56:40 <kingtaco|work> so you want to require herds with 2 active members for popular packages
Mar 08 16:56:49 <Kugelfang> jupp
Mar 08 16:56:56 <Kugelfang> and opt in for non-herd members
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Mar 08 16:57:15 <Kugelfang> for a very well defined - read listed - set of packages
Mar 08 16:57:25 <kingtaco|work> what do you mean opt in?
Mar 08 16:57:28 <Kugelfang> i don'T want to step on maintainers' toes though
Mar 08 16:57:31 <kingtaco|work> for non herd members
Mar 08 16:57:32 <robbat2> i think some herds might have objections to that - per short-term fixes leading to long-term troubles
Mar 08 16:57:49 <g2boojum> Kugelfang: People not wanting "strangers" to work on packages is a flaw, in my opinion.  As long as people don't break the packages, they should get over it.
Mar 08 16:57:58 <Kugelfang> g2boojum: correct
Mar 08 16:58:28 <Kugelfang> robbat2: yeah, we'd need to define that latency very well
Mar 08 16:58:55 <Kugelfang> robbat2: and it would probably lead to better coordination between herd members / maintainers
Mar 08 16:59:09 <kingtaco|work> guys, I think this is outside of the context of what wolf would have voted for, so we no longer have 7
Mar 08 16:59:30 <kingtaco|work> can we open this up to public discussion and punt any vote to next month?
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Mar 08 16:59:35 <robbat2> in the meantime, could you tell us how the "branded" hardware differed from the certified hardware?
Mar 08 16:59:47 <robbat2> just an overview quickly
Mar 08 17:00:03 <kingtaco|work> branded hardware is a platform we design and market, as well as build the software
Mar 08 17:00:10 <kingtaco|work> I'm thinking purpose built hardware
Mar 08 17:00:19 <kingtaco|work> stuff with the efika is an obvious example
Mar 08 17:00:26 <kingtaco|work> like a gentoo media center
Mar 08 17:00:32 <kingtaco|work> or gentoo metrowifi access point
Mar 08 17:00:52 <kingtaco|work> we would partner with OEMs, but the case badge would be gentoo
Mar 08 17:01:04 <Kugelfang> that sounds very nice.. we'd need to get info from one of those OEMs first, but i'm all for that idea
Mar 08 17:01:17 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, I've already talked to gensei
Mar 08 17:01:24 <kingtaco|work> they are somewhat interested
Mar 08 17:01:32 <robbat2> sure, i'm down with that concept
Mar 08 17:01:34 <UberL> i need to go guys. is there anything else we're voting on?
Mar 08 17:01:42 <kingtaco|work> nope, no votes
Mar 08 17:01:55 <UberL> kk, cyas
Mar 08 17:01:56 <Kugelfang> open floor?
Mar 08 17:02:01 <Kugelfang> UberL: see you
Mar 08 17:02:01 * UberL (n=uberlord@rsm.demon.co.uk) has left #gentoo-council
Mar 08 17:02:02 <kingtaco|work> ok, we're down to 5, lets open floor
Mar 08 17:02:06 * kingtaco|work sets mode -m #gentoo-council
Mar 08 17:02:18 <kingtaco|work> who's doing logging + summ today?
Mar 08 17:02:22 * blubb has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Mar 08 17:02:27 * kingtaco|work looks at Kugelfang or robbat2 
Mar 08 17:02:30 <robbat2> a quick note on something I mentioned early
Mar 08 17:02:37 <robbat2> no, i'm not doing it. i need more sleep
Mar 08 17:03:01 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, can you take care of the logs and summary?
Mar 08 17:03:02 <Kugelfang> i have no loggin on
Mar 08 17:03:05 <kingtaco|work> or you vapier
Mar 08 17:03:09 <Kugelfang> give me a log and i'll do the summary though
Mar 08 17:03:19 <kingtaco|work> I can email you logs in about 5 hours
Mar 08 17:03:23 <Kugelfang> nod
Mar 08 17:03:28 <kingtaco|work> my home box logs
Mar 08 17:03:36 <robbat2> for tree-signing stuff, as of the very latest gnupg-2.0.3, upstream has make a design change in response to a possible security flaw, and it has a nice side effect of making the tree-signing (specifically the high-speed verification) possible in a different way
Mar 08 17:03:36 <kingtaco|work> ok, I'll send out logs and you do the summ
Mar 08 17:03:37 <kloeri> I have logs
Mar 08 17:03:40 <marienz> (I have an irssi autolog if you need one, it's not exactly pretty though)
Mar 08 17:03:53 <kingtaco|work> kloeri, ok, you work with danny then :)
Mar 08 17:03:57 <kingtaco|work> robbat2, hows that
Mar 08 17:04:04 <kloeri> nod
Mar 08 17:04:04 <Kugelfang> i take everything, as long as it's in ASCII
Mar 08 17:04:23 <solar> robbat2: the fd handling?
Mar 08 17:04:43 <robbat2> the --status-fd and the issue of prepended text yes
Mar 08 17:05:02 <robbat2> it didn't used to be able to seperate it easily, but it is now
Mar 08 17:05:06 <kloeri> Kugelfang: my irssi log should be fine
Mar 08 17:05:18 <NeddySeagoon> kingtaco|work, 'Own label' hardware is an expensive thing to do in the EU. The brand takes on liability for all regulatory compliance
Mar 08 17:05:26 <Kugelfang> kloeri: :-)
Mar 08 17:05:57 <Kugelfang> NeddySeagoon: he doesn't mean "Gentoo's metrowifi AP"
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Mar 08 17:06:10 <Kugelfang> NeddySeagoon: he means "Foo Corporation's metrowifi AP, powered by Gentoo"
Mar 08 17:06:16 <solar> robbat2: here is a new core advisory about it if you missed it. http://www.coresecurity.com/?action=item&id=1687
Mar 08 17:06:32 <NeddySeagoon> Kugelfang, Ah ... thats a little different
Mar 08 17:06:48 <kingtaco|work> NeddySeagoon, that's one of the things we'd have to investifate, but tbh, it would be a us company
Mar 08 17:06:58 <kingtaco|work> as we're a US foundation
Mar 08 17:07:03 <robbat2> solar: I know about it. Werner Koch released his patch before the advisory was out, because the advisory guys got delayed in releasing
Mar 08 17:07:04 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: that's doesn't remove the liability ;-)
Mar 08 17:07:18 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, perhaps it removes our ability to sell in the EU
Mar 08 17:07:31 <kingtaco|work> but other companies have worked around it, we need to find out what they've done
Mar 08 17:07:47 <Kugelfang> well, selling stuff or preparing that is not our task... that's up to the trustees
Mar 08 17:07:55 <kingtaco|work> indeed
Mar 08 17:08:10 <Kugelfang> i though you meant "powered by gentoo" brands?
Mar 08 17:08:17 <kingtaco|work> but it's a direction we as developers can work towards while the trustees work out the legal mumbojumbo
Mar 08 17:08:35 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, in my mind it's the same thing
Mar 08 17:08:37 <solar> robbat2: i know taviso is not so very happy about it. more or less core regurgutated his previous research as thier own
Mar 08 17:08:44 <kingtaco|work> we wouldn't be designing board and making the pcbs
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Mar 08 17:09:07 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: nope!
Mar 08 17:09:14 <robbat2> solar: ok, that makes him the 4th person I know of to indepentantly raise it
Mar 08 17:09:23 <kingtaco|work> we would select the hardware, work with oems and develop a "product" based on their hardware
Mar 08 17:09:33 <kingtaco|work> we provide the IP, they provide the hardware
Mar 08 17:09:33 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: as long as we're not selling them and only get small revenues from the producer/Seller, we're save
Mar 08 17:09:37 <kingtaco|work> more of a partnership
Mar 08 17:09:59 <solar> KingTaco: I think that should fall under a Enterprise Gentoo. (an internal fork one might say..)
Mar 08 17:10:05 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, we'd probably do it similar to how we "sell" the gensei workstations
Mar 08 17:10:05 <NeddySeagoon> kingtaco|work, IF you buy some bits and screw them together, in the EU you are liable for safety, EMC, low voltage directive, CE marking etc. ... The low cost routes are still very expensive
Mar 08 17:10:41 <robbat2> NeddySeagoon, physical bits or does it count per electron too?
Mar 08 17:10:48 <kingtaco|work> NeddySeagoon, like I said, we would provide the hardware design specs and IP, the OEM would do the actual hardware
Mar 08 17:10:59 <Kugelfang> we don't do hardware, we shouldn't do, and before going enterprise binary packages should be have less bugs than they have now
Mar 08 17:11:10 <Kugelfang> -be
Mar 08 17:11:21 <kingtaco|work> solar, it's the direction I'd like us to work towards
Mar 08 17:11:29 <jmbsvicetto> kingtaco|work: Are you thinking only on enterprise hardware? Or are you talking about things like end-user laptops?
Mar 08 17:11:32 <robbat2> some of the targeted hardware stuff has less tree requirements than an entire stable tree
Mar 08 17:11:32 <NeddySeagoon> kingtaco|work, Physical bits ... liek screwing a PC together
Mar 08 17:11:39 <kingtaco|work> NeddySeagoon, we wouldn't do that
Mar 08 17:11:45 <solar> binary packages are quite stable. It's the ebuild-maintainers which are at fault for usually doing the wrong thing.
Mar 08 17:12:03 <kingtaco|work> jmbsvicetto, the 2 initial markets I'm thinking of are embedded and server, but laptop is certainly an area where we could explore
Mar 08 17:12:12 <kingtaco|work> I *don't* want to do desktop
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Mar 08 17:12:28 <kingtaco|work> ubuntu and suse already have the lions share there
Mar 08 17:12:43 <jmbsvicetto> kingtaco|work: I ask, because the tree for the laptop and the embedded/server market are substantially different ;)
Mar 08 17:13:03 <kingtaco|work> jmbsvicetto, hence the overlays stuff I was talking about before
Mar 08 17:13:10 <Kugelfang> solar: 14:09 < genone> well, I still think we need to redesign the whole binary package stuff from scratch at some point
Mar 08 17:13:22 <Kugelfang> solar: i think other portage devs are disgreeing there
Mar 08 17:13:44 <solar> Kugelfang: yeah well thats what he thinks. I know I've worked with the format more than anybody else.
Mar 08 17:13:55 <solar> it could use some improvments but does not need an overhaul
Mar 08 17:14:22 <jmbsvicetto> kingtaco|work: Personally, I'm very interested in the server market, for work. But as Kugelfang was saying, if that's *the* priority, we take the risk of sending away a great number of users
Mar 08 17:14:26 <marienz> spaetz: eep
Mar 08 17:14:30 <marienz> spaetz: sorry, wrong channel
Mar 08 17:14:43 <spaetz> :-)
Mar 08 17:14:55 <kingtaco|work> jmbsvicetto, and my proposal was voted down
Mar 08 17:15:16 <kingtaco|work> I'll be doing some more work on it next month and see if I can come up with something better
Mar 08 17:15:22 <jmbsvicetto> I noticed, but that doesn't mean that the issue isn't relevant
Mar 08 17:15:55 <kingtaco|work> tbh, I don't want those users who only stick around for the rice
Mar 08 17:15:59 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: you said you'd move cruft out of gentoo-x86 to overlays
Mar 08 17:16:00 <marienz> I think you'll have to come up with a bit more technical details before this makes sense though
Mar 08 17:16:01 <kingtaco|work> we have so much more to offer
Mar 08 17:16:05 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: can you compile a list of those packages?
Mar 08 17:16:10 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: need not be complete
Mar 08 17:16:15 <Kugelfang> kingtaco|work: but some examples would be nice
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Mar 08 17:16:28 <kingtaco|work> Kugelfang, find /usr/portage | grep -v sys-* would be a start
Mar 08 17:16:35 <robbat2> there are also a lot of users that are here for the flexibility itself, not the ricing
Mar 08 17:16:36 <Kugelfang> huh?
Mar 08 17:16:39 <marienz> I think a lot of us don't want the rice users, but it'd be kinda annoying if I'm not allowed to stick around as desktop user :)
Mar 08 17:16:42 <kingtaco|work> an example is my spca5xx stuff
Mar 08 17:16:51 <kingtaco|work> that has no reason being in the primary tree
Mar 08 17:17:08 <kingtaco|work> other than we don't have a good way of having supplimentary trees
Mar 08 17:17:16 <solar> without a proper stats project you will never really know.
Mar 08 17:17:20 <Kugelfang> !meta spca5xx
Mar 08 17:17:21 <jeeves> Kugelfang: Package: media-video/spca5xx Herd: no-herd Maintainer: kingtaco@gentoo.org
Mar 08 17:17:34 <kingtaco|work> it's a drive for shitty usb webcams
Mar 08 17:18:01 <jmbsvicetto> kingtaco|work: The way you're putting it, I wonder if you're thinking in Ubuntu
Mar 08 17:18:23 <Kugelfang> world vs universe?
Mar 08 17:18:24 <jmbsvicetto> kingtaco|work: I have one of those shitty usb webcams, so thank you for putting it in ;)
Mar 08 17:18:27 <kingtaco|work> jmbsvicetto, tbh, I haven't installed ubuntu in almost 2 years
Mar 08 17:18:50 <jmbsvicetto> kingtaco|work: I've never installed it myself. I just helped a few people looking into it
Mar 08 17:19:04 <robbat2> with maintaining stuff for stable, there's one thing I've run into, and i'm sorry that I was the one that came up with the idea in the first place
Mar 08 17:19:10 <jmbsvicetto> Kugelfang: I think that's what they call them. IIRC, they have several trees as well, right?
Mar 08 17:19:18 <robbat2> and that was ebuilds where the majority of functionality has moved to the eclass
Mar 08 17:19:21 <robbat2> eg php and mysql
Mar 08 17:19:54 <robbat2> simple because it's becoming harder and harder to accurately say emerge foo-$ver-$rev  will get you an exact set of behavior
Mar 08 17:23:11 <Pylon> Make sure having a search engine for all packages in all available overlays.  That's the cool thing currently having one big tree.
Mar 08 17:23:40 <welp[lap]> Pylon, eix already does that with overlays in layman
Mar 08 17:23:51 <robbat2> you have to have the overlays on your system for that
Mar 08 17:23:57 <welp[lap]> nope
Mar 08 17:24:02 <welp[lap]> there's a remote-sync thnigie
Mar 08 17:24:04 <welp[lap]> *thingie
Mar 08 17:24:13 <welp[lap]> isn't there?
Mar 08 17:24:14 <Pylon> welp[lap]: Only those which you added locally.  But how can you find out the overlay where your desired package is in?
Mar 08 17:24:17 <Kugelfang> there's still the problem of inter-overlay frpd
Mar 08 17:24:32 <Kugelfang> and portage doesn't support more than 3 hardcoded repositories
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Mar 08 17:24:49 <Kugelfang> actually, it's exactly 3 hardcodede repositories iirc
Mar 08 17:25:03 <welp[lap]> Pylon, what about update-eix-remote?
Mar 08 17:25:49 <Kugelfang> welp[lap]: uhm, th epoint of multiple overlays is to not need to sync them all
Mar 08 17:26:04 <Pylon> welp[lap]: Seems like an inaccurate description of this tool in it's --help output ;)
Mar 08 17:27:22 <jokey> Pylon: update-eix-remote
Mar 08 17:27:23 <jokey> ;)
Mar 08 17:27:54 <jokey> then you have all layman'ed overlays available for searching
Mar 08 17:27:59 <Pylon> jokey: Yes.  Now I know what it does.  But the description is irritating.
Mar 08 17:28:08 <welp[lap]> the eix database on my machine has info on over 65(?) overlays
Mar 08 17:28:14 <welp[lap]> i think
Mar 08 17:28:29 <Pylon> 88
Mar 08 17:28:47 <Pylon> In the current eix-caches.tbz2
Mar 08 17:29:18 <welp[lap]> hmm, 13644 packages.
Mar 08 17:29:25 <Pylon> Well, that's a start.  But I know many people who only use the websearch on packages.gentoo.org.  Or even some non-official websites.
Mar 08 17:29:50 <welp[lap]> like gentoo-portage.com?
Mar 08 17:30:00 <Pylon> I didn't want to name it ;-)
Mar 08 17:30:05 <welp[lap]> hehe
Mar 08 17:30:12 * welp[lap] has it bookmarked :o
Mar 08 17:30:28 <Pylon> Probably because the design is better…
Mar 08 17:30:47 <kingtaco|work> I never liked gentoo-portage
Mar 08 17:30:48 <Pylon> And more Web2.0-like.
Mar 08 17:30:51 <welp[lap]> but it has too much info imo
Mar 08 17:30:55 <kingtaco|work> packages is easier on the eyes
Mar 08 17:30:57 <welp[lap]> may as well just look at the build