path: root/meeting-logs/20080313.txt

20:02 <      amne@> do we have an agenda somewhere?
20:02 -!- Betelgeuse changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Council meeting
20:03 <     Jokey@> I think dberkholz was writing one
20:03 <      amne@> good
20:03  * ferringb stretches, if it's not on the agenda, eapi status would be lovely also
20:03 <    fmccor > ferringb, No, not really you don't.
20:03 <     Jokey@> as he always does ;)
20:03  * ferringb turns off the red light in the meantime, and shuts up
20:05 <     Jokey@> wondering where the other half is atm
20:05 -!- mpagano|work [n=mike@pool-96-225-79-106.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:05 <kingtaco|w > probably screwed by DST
20:05 -!- mpagano [n=mpagano@gentoo/developer/mpagano] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:06  * kingtaco recalls this from last year
20:06 <     Jokey@> time change or sth?
20:06 <kingtaco|w > yeah
20:06 <      amne@> yupp
20:06 <kingtaco|w > US was last weekend
20:06 <Betelgeuse@> Jokey: US goes to Summer time earlier
20:06 <     Jokey@> ah
20:06 -!- windzor [n=windzor@84.238.83.251] has joined #gentoo-council
20:06 <    fmccor > Congress thinks it saves energy by making the days longer or something.
20:06  *    Jokey waits for announcements on tv ;)
20:07 <kingtaco|w > fmccor, actual results were more power consumption
20:07 <kingtaco|w > congress--
20:07 -!- Flameeyes [n=flame@amarok/helper/flameeyes] has joined #gentoo-council
20:07 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o Flameeyes] by ChanServ
20:07 <    fmccor > I think I saw that somewhere, too.
20:07 <kingtaco|w > yeah, it was a joke
20:07 <    fmccor > They forgot that it's dark in the morning, now.
20:07 <    TFKyle > boo, people should just away with DST completely :)
20:07  * Flameeye notes to himself: never write stuff down on the calendar _and don't look at it_
20:08 <NeddySeago > Flameeyes, write that on the calendar :)
20:08 <     Jokey@> should set up jabber announcements really ;)
20:08 <      amne@> so, can we assume the rest isn't here until in an hour?
20:08 <   KillerX > so we got to wait for another hour?
20:08 <    fmccor > TFKyle, I agree, or work on standard time +1/2 all year
20:08 <   KillerX > damn its late here :(
20:08 <     Jokey@> KillerX: looks like it
20:08 -!- lu_zero [n=lu_zero@gentoo/developer/lu-zero] has joined #gentoo-council
20:08 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o lu_zero] by ChanServ
20:08 <   lu_zero@> hi
20:08 < Flameeyes@> NeddySeagoon, I could write it on a whiteboard, and then forget about the whiteboard
20:09 <   Halcyon > amne: actually, they should have been here an hour ago.  Its 1600 on the east coast.
20:09 <      amne@> Halcyon: gah... i really hate time zones
20:09 < Flameeyes@> 20UTC was ten minutes ago
20:09 < Flameeyes@> [give or take a minute]
20:09 <   lu_zero@> ^^
20:09 -!- rane [n=rane@gentoo/developer/rane] has joined #gentoo-council
20:09 < Flameeyes@> amne, so we can set next meetings on a stardate basis?
20:10 <   KillerX > seconds from epoch
20:10 <    vapier@> no, stars move
20:10 <       ulm > hm, shouldn't people be one hour earlier if their local is on DST now?
20:10 <   Halcyon > Thu Mar 13 16:10:01 EDT 2008
20:10 < Flameeyes@> if so we have to decide whether to use TOS stardate or TNG stardate
20:10 < Flameeyes@> ulm, DST means +1
20:10 <      amne@> i'm for klingon time
20:10 <   Halcyon > Flameeyes: which makes his statement true :)
20:10 -!- vln- [n=v1n@unaffiliated/vln] has joined #gentoo-council
20:10 <      amne@> IOW, it's always a good time to die
20:11 < Flameeyes@> ah okay now I got what he meant, thought it as "in their timezone" :P
20:11 <       ulm > Flameeyes: yes, that's why they should be early if the meeting is scheduled in UTC
20:11 <    fmccor > true
20:11 <Betelgeuse@> yeah they should have been early
20:12 < Flameeyes@> so who is in dst?
20:12 <    vapier@> ive been prowling for an hour
20:12 <    vapier@> cause the topic said 1500 :p
20:12 -!- shpaq [i=shpaq@gentoo/user/shpaq] has joined #gentoo-council
20:12 -!- arachnist [i=arachnis@paludis/monkey/arachnist] has joined #gentoo-council
20:12 <Betelgeuse@> So we are missing dberkholz
20:12 < Flameeyes@> if google calendar wasn't seriously broken with konqueror I'd suggest we add a global gentoo calendar in there
20:13 < Flameeyes@> and schedule stuff like meetings (not limited to council but also team meetings) and lastrites and similar...
20:13 <   lu_zero@> Flameeyes I'd miss that
20:13 <     Jokey@> Betelgeuse: most important our agenda guy :(
20:13 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero, set it up to warn you via SMS
20:13 < Flameeyes@> then you won't miss it :D
20:13 <   lu_zero@> probably having an auto-im notification would do as well
20:13 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero, hmm propose them a googletalk notification, I suppose that could be done
20:13 <      amne@> date -d "2000 UTC"
20:13 <      amne@> that one usually does the trick for me
20:13 < Flameeyes@> they have sms notifications
20:14 <Betelgeuse@> kingtaco|laptop: Do you or any other American have Donnie's phone number?
20:14 <   Halcyon > Or....you could just remember to come :)
20:15 <Betelgeuse@> Well imho should just get started.
20:15 <Betelgeuse@> And find from the mailing list thread on what to talk about :d
20:15 <      amne@> ++
20:16 -!- antesenamon [n=antesena@host-89-230-10-219.bilgoraj.mm.pl] has joined #gentoo-council
20:16 <antesenamo > Hi
20:17 <kingtaco|w > Betelgeuse, nope, I don't...
20:17 <kingtaco|w > Betelgeuse, solar might though
20:17 <kingtaco|w > or ramereth
20:17  * ferringb does
20:17 < Flameeyes@> we should do like we did with last council and exchange contact information
20:17 <kingtaco|w > ramereth almost certainly does
20:18 <      amne@> so, let's just start without agenda and dberkholz?
20:18 -!- lazy_bum [i=lazy_bum@chello081018206212.chello.pl] has joined #gentoo-council
20:19 <Betelgeuse@> First thing I see is amd64 and their big bug list.
20:19 < Flameeyes@> amne, I'd say so, I can't find an agenda on his devspace either
20:19 <Betelgeuse@> But is there anything to discuss really?
20:19 <Betelgeuse@> Thye need more people period
20:19 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, a bonus of 2 litres of beer for who closes most bug during the month of April?
20:19 -!- spb [n=stephen@freenode/developer/spb] has joined #gentoo-council
20:20 <  ferringb > sms'd donnie, so we'll see if he pops up.
20:20 <Betelgeuse@> kingtaco|work: Any thoughts?
20:20 <   lu_zero@> hm
20:21 <kingtaco|w > Betelgeuse, ?
20:21 <     Jokey@> what about status updates?
20:21 -!- cla [i=cla@gentoo/developer/cla] has joined #gentoo-council
20:21 <kingtaco|w > doing nothing but keywording sucks ass
20:21 <kingtaco|w > hard to keep people interested
20:21 <     Jokey@> vapier: you have the open task about slacker arches ;)
20:22 <kingtaco|w > I gave everyone permission to keyword their own packages(outside of system) back when we were trying 2007.1
20:22 <Betelgeuse@> kingtaco|work: Shouldn't you remove people who don't keyword anything from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/
20:22 <kingtaco|w > I haven't rescended that
20:22 <     Jokey@> besides GLEPs had no update so no discussion required either
20:22 <Betelgeuse@> kingtaco|work: To at least make it reflect that you need more people
20:22 <kingtaco|w > Betelgeuse, you mean fire a bunch of people, probably....
20:23 <    vapier@> Jokey: yeah, ive done much in Gentoo ... too busy with work
20:23 <Betelgeuse@> kingtaco|work: yes
20:23 <    vapier@> i've got three things to get done this weekend and that's one of them
20:23 <kingtaco|w > Betelgeuse, tbh, it's pretty low on the priority list
20:23 <    vapier@> gcc-4.3.0, baselayout/openrc, slacker arches
20:23 <kingtaco|w > not to mention I'm on leave
20:23 <   Halcyon > vapier: I was going to ask you about gcc-4.3 this weekend actually :)  Let me know if you need help with anything.
20:23 <kingtaco|w > (not that anyone respects that)
20:23 <   lu_zero@> vapier about gcc-4.3.0 tell me how to help
20:24  *  lu_zero has gcc-4.3.0 built already on the ps3
20:24 <    vapier@> mostly testing
20:24 <    vapier@> when i stick it in, start using it and get tracker bugs going
20:24 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit []
20:25 <   lu_zero@> ok
20:25 -!- ryker [n=ryker@76.16.114.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:25 <     Jokey@> what about we shift meeting one week and send people a notice to refresh the topics they promised to send input on?
20:26 < Flameeyes@> Jokey, I have one topic myself
20:26 <     Jokey@> okies
20:26 <Betelgeuse@> Jokey: Also should talk about the 'package maintainer' post proposition
20:26 <    vapier@> my topic wont be ready for one week ... has to let devs dust it out
20:27 <     Jokey@> then we should formally start
20:27 < Flameeyes@> about gentoo developers taking part in SoC as students
20:27 <      amne@> Jokey: which topics are you refering to? i'm sure we have some we can discuss now (and if necessary still next week)
20:27 <     Jokey@> anyone willing to take chair? :)
20:27 < Flameeyes@> Jokey, you just volunteered yourself :)
20:27 <      amne@> Jokey++
20:27 <      amne@> :-P
20:27 <Betelgeuse@> Jokey: I thought we already started :D
20:27 <     Jokey@> #1
20:27 <     Jokey@> roll call then
20:28 <     Jokey@> all little councils show up please :)
20:28  *     amne stands up
20:28 <Betelgeuse@> \o_
20:28 <   lu_zero@>  o/
20:29  * Flameeye is here
20:30 < Flameeyes@> vapier has fleed?
20:30 <     Jokey@> looks like it ;)
20:30 <    vapier@> ?
20:30 < Flameeyes@> ah! we've seen you!
20:30 <      amne@> ok, done with role call... dberkholz gets an MIA tag
20:30 <     Jokey@> right
20:30 < Flameeyes@> (this is going to be the less serious council meeting ever, by this pace)
20:31 < Flameeyes@> can we start with an easy one?
20:31 <     Jokey@> so, let's get topics first
20:31 < Flameeyes@> okay one topic I can add is the one I proposed for soc: should we allow gentoo developers to take part in soc as _gentoo's_ students?
20:31 <      amne@> amd64, new developer thingie between staff and full developer come to my mind
20:32 <      amne@> Flameeyes: totally unprepared for that, have seen the thread on -dev, but not read it as it wasn't mentioned in the council meeting thread (or i've not seen it)
20:32 -!- KillerX_ [n=anant@mnit.ac.in] has joined #gentoo-council
20:33 <   lu_zero@> I'd leave it as up to the devs decide
20:33 <Betelgeuse@> I would rather have existing devs doing quality stuff instead of new people doing crap.
20:33 <      amne@> Betelgeuse: good point
20:34 < Flameeyes@> amne, I tried to post it on gentoo-council but I'm having trouble to post there :/
20:34 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, I'd prefer new people doing something decent myself
20:34 <      amne@> also a question: how many devs did we recruit from SoC so far per year?
20:34 <      amne@> (probably answered on dev, not through yet)
20:34 <Betelgeuse@> amne: I don't remember anyone going through us.
20:34 < Flameeyes@> two last year
20:34 < Flameeyes@> ah wait other way around
20:34 < Flameeyes@> hm
20:34 <     Jokey@> araujo at least
20:34 <  KillerX_ > I'm one from the year before that
20:34 < Flameeyes@> one, I think?
20:34 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX_: Yeah from that we did get.
20:34 < Flameeyes@> pioto too
20:35 <Betelgeuse@> that was the year before
20:35 <Betelgeuse@> I think
20:35 < Flameeyes@> 2006
20:35 <Betelgeuse@> yeah
20:35 < Flameeyes@> 2007 was mostly a failure for non-devs
20:35 <  KillerX_ > Yep, 2 from 2006
20:35 <      amne@> ok, that's not so much.
20:35 <Betelgeuse@> 2007 was failure from organizing pov too
20:35 < Flameeyes@> can we forget about 2007 even existing? :)
20:36 <   lu_zero@> right
20:36 < Flameeyes@> anant, not sure if he was already around before 2006 soc though
20:36 <      amne@> from my POV, the two main points it can do are a) providing new devs b) having existing devs do some work and get paid, so they have more time to do something for gentoo instead of earning money by mowing their neighbours lawn
20:36 <   lu_zero@> still would be nicer avoid such bad esperience again
20:36 < Flameeyes@> mdisney?
20:36 <      amne@> for me both a) and b) sounds useful for gentoo
20:36 <  KillerX_ > Flameeyes: I am anant :-p
20:36 < Flameeyes@> KillerX_, ah... you confuse me! :P
20:36 <   lu_zero@> ^^;
20:37 <     Jokey@> heh
20:37 <   lu_zero@> still I'd rather have more dev doing mentoring tasks
20:37 <   lu_zero@> and make sure the slot we got doesn't get wasted
20:38 <      amne@> Flameeyes: about your mail wrt how much money you get, i think SoC isn't that much focused on people with a regular jobs but rather students who do it as a summer job. and in that case working for gentoo could be a good alterntive to a "normal" job
20:39 < dberkholz@> ah crap, my bad. i suck.
20:39 <   lu_zero@> dberkholz !
20:39 <     Jokey@> heh
20:39 <   lu_zero@> you are ALIVE!
20:39 <      amne@> oi dberkholz
20:39 <     Jokey@> the slacker arrived :D
20:39  *  lu_zero hugs dberkholz 
20:39 < dberkholz@> i'm still a slacker.
20:39 <      amne@> dberkholz: not if you brought an agenda :-)
20:40 -!- akroplas [n=akroplas@gentoo/user/akroplas] has joined #gentoo-council
20:41 -!- KillerX_ is now known as KillerX
20:41 <      amne@> so, any more opinions/ideas/suggestions/questions wrt to that?
20:42 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero, you scare me sometimes :P
20:42 < Flameeyes@> amne, sincerely I'd rather leave up the slots for people wanting evne to try something new
20:42 -!- lazy_bum [i=lazy_bum@chello081018206212.chello.pl] has left #gentoo-council []
20:42 < Flameeyes@> it's not like there are no other projects than gentoo to contribute to
20:42 <   lu_zero@> Flameeyes just sometimes?
20:42 <      amne@> Flameeyes: is the number of slots limited?
20:42 <     Jokey@> amne: yep
20:43 <   KillerX > amne: yep
20:43 < Flameeyes@> amne, yes, every organisation gets a number of slots
20:43 < Flameeyes@> if there was unlimited choice of people, then I'd welcome everybody
20:43 <     Jokey@> as we've been lucky last times, we had a bunch of slots
20:43 <     Jokey@> not sure if it happens again but let's cross fingers :)
20:43 < Flameeyes@> Jokey, 2007 less than 2006 though
20:43 <   KillerX > They usually give distros more slots since we're counted as 'umbrella' organizations
20:43 <      amne@> in that case, they should be sorted by some criteria, that should include how useful it is, chance of succes etc. i could imagine that being a potential new dev could play role here as _one_ point
20:43 < Flameeyes@> and 2007 was quite a failure
20:44 <   lu_zero@> Flameeyes right
20:44 <     Jokey@> amne: proposals are voted on so you have a top list
20:44 <   KillerX > yes that might impact our slots for 2008
20:44 < Flameeyes@> if they are going to allocate slots based upon last year, we might not be as lucky
20:44 <   lu_zero@> and I still wonder how not to end that way again
20:44 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: Why wouldn't existing devs be doing something new?
20:44 <      amne@> Jokey: voted how? by us (being gentoo, not council)?
20:44 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: You aren't even allowed to just work on existing stuff.
20:44 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, because the project is just the same,
20:45 <   KillerX > amne: All registered mentors can vote.
20:45 <   KillerX > amne: Via the GSoC web interface (requires a google account)
20:45 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, I just would prefer different projects at that point
20:45 <   KillerX > amne: Org. administrator approves mentors. Not sure who that is this year.
20:45 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, even non-mentors but registered as admins, at least in 2006
20:45 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: We could easily make it go by council.
20:45 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: Just have some people vote based on the council decision.
20:45 <      amne@> KillerX: ah. in that case i'd say, if the mentors think it's better to have projects from new guys than existing devs, it's up to them
20:45 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, I think antarus or tsunam
20:46 <   KillerX > amne: Yes, that about sums up the situation.
20:46 < Flameeyes@> talking about which, we only have six people volunteering as mentors
20:46 < Flameeyes@> it would be nice to have some more
20:46 <      amne@> KillerX: works for me ;-)
20:46 < Flameeyes@> and some more ideas for projects
20:46 <     Jokey@> Flameeyes: add me in again, I forgot to send a mail your way ;)
20:46 <   KillerX > But like Betelgeuse suggests, if we re-route the proposals to council for voting, the dev community might be able to have some impact on which ones are selected.
20:47 < Flameeyes@> Jokey, err just commit it to the index.xml file :) no need to ask me :P
20:47 <     Jokey@> KillerX: only problem is that proposals are not to be public if I recall it correctly
20:47 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, well the easiest way is to make the council all register as admins... so we can see the proposals as they come
20:47 <     Jokey@> only summaries are
20:47  * Flameeye looks at the rest of the council
20:47 <   KillerX > Jokey: Yes. We could discuss them on -core though?
20:48 <   KillerX > Ah yes, Flameeyes' idea is much better
20:48 <   lu_zero@> who is going to be the admin today?
20:48 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, I don't think that's a good idea either, as there will be students reading there
20:48 < Flameeyes@> [on -core I mean]
20:48 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: Weren't you against devs being students :D
20:48 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero, well The admin as I said it's either antarus or tsunam afaics
20:48 <   KillerX > you're right, registering council members as admins would be best
20:48 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, you just said you all aren't, so I assume I lost that battle :)
20:49 < Flameeyes@> and yeah this is one more reason why I'd rather not have gentoo students being gentoo developers already
20:49 <Betelgeuse@> I don't know if I can register to the admin side as I will be applying as a student.
20:49 <    vapier@> so only have free members
20:49 <     Jokey@> Betelgeuse: you can be admin or student for a project but not both
20:49 -!- spb [n=stephen@freenode/developer/spb] has left #gentoo-council []
20:49 <   KillerX > Betelgeuse: You can. As long as you're not marked mentor. I don't know if it's a bug or not, but I didn't complain :-D
20:49 <   KillerX > admin != student
20:50 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: good
20:50 <   KillerX > er, admin != mentor I mean
20:50 <   KillerX > :-/
20:50 < dberkholz@> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dberkholz/20080313-summary.txt -- anyone like it?
20:50 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, student for which project? ;)
20:50 <     Jokey@> dberkholz +1 :D
20:51 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: I haven't decided projects to apply for.
20:51 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: Orgs yes.
20:51  *    Jokey /dev/null's his half-summary
20:51 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, orgs is what I meant
20:51 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: I am pretty sure I can get in via my Free/Java contacts.
20:51 <   KillerX > you can't mentor and student at the same time even for different projects
20:51 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, so I suppose it's not gentoo ;) then there is no conflict of interest :P
20:52 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: I can of course apply for Gentoo too.
20:52 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: Bad experience last year thoug.
20:52 <   KillerX > Umm, Google might object, you should check on that.
20:52 <   KillerX > Since you'll be able to rate your own proposal in that case ;)
20:53 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: Just need to leave Gentoo out then.
20:53 <   KillerX > Yes. You can be admin for Gentoo as long as you apply to a different org as a student.
20:53 < Flameeyes@> either way, even if it's just Betelgeuse, I suppose the rest of the council can just as well join as admin for soc
20:54 <     Jokey@> ack
20:54 <Betelgeuse@> So should we vote on who decides who gets our slots?
20:54 <Betelgeuse@> All admins or just council.
20:54 <      amne@> Betelgeuse: imho admins
20:54 < dberkholz@> the admins already have experience doing it, seems like they'd be valuable
20:54 < Flameeyes@> I'd sincerely say admins, with council breaking up ties if anything
20:54 <   KillerX > Coming back to the issue, I think all proposals should be rated based purely on their merit, not on the basis of who the proposer is.
20:55 < dberkholz@> isn't that part of the merit? the likelihood of the person applying to finish the task based on his/her experience and knowledge?
20:55 <   KillerX > That would form a part of the merit, yes. But it's also possible for a non-gentoo-dev to have that kind of experience and knowledge.
20:56 < dberkholz@> sure, i agree
20:56 <     Jokey@> like ex-portage devs f.ex ;)
20:57 <     Jokey@> oh wait, jstubbs became dev again, didn't he?
20:57 <   KillerX > I remember the gnome folks had a similar debate, let me see if I can find out where that ended
20:59 < Flameeyes@> debian has one too
21:00 <   KillerX > "Since an important goal of the Summer of Code for us is to get new contributors, we'll try to avoid accepting students who already participated in a GNOME-related SoC/WSOP project or who is already a GNOME contributor (thus, this does not apply to students who participated in SoC, but in a totally unrelated to GNOME project). However, this is not a strict rule: if a student in such a case proposes a really great project, we'll accept his/
21:01 <   KillerX > that's from the gnome wiki
21:02 < dberkholz@> so basically affirmative action for non-contributors
21:03 <   KillerX > something like that
21:08 <      amne@> anyone else got something to add?
21:08 < Flameeyes@> I'll just leave the decision up to you guys
21:08 <   lu_zero@> not much
21:09 < dberkholz@> seems like a reasonable way to go to me
21:09 < dberkholz@> what are the admins doing right now?
21:09 < dberkholz@> do we even need to make a decision on this?
21:09 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, waiting to see if we're accepted I suppose
21:09 < dberkholz@> i mean irt the above policy, are they doing that or something else
21:10 < Flameeyes@> I think right now we're all making our own choices
21:10 <      amne@> dberkholz: you mean gnome's policy?
21:10 < Flameeyes@> myself, I won't mentor students that are already devs
21:10 < Flameeyes@> antarus said he will
21:10 < Flameeyes@> not sure the others
21:10 < dberkholz@> amne: no i mean our soc admins right now
21:10 <      amne@> dberkholz: ah, yeah
21:11 <      amne@> i'm for the admins doing their stuff
21:14 <      amne@> ok...
21:14 <      amne@> since no one really responds, could we just make a vote on anything?
21:15  * Betelgeu votes for world peace
21:15 <      amne@> like "we don't see a need to do something from council side and will our SoC people let do what they think makes sense"?
21:15 <      amne@> Betelgeuse: hehe
21:15 <      amne@> if someone has a better think (on topic) to vote on, feel free to propose it
21:16 < dberkholz@> it would be nice if any of the admins were around to say their policy
21:17 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero
21:17 < Flameeyes@> Jokey?
21:17 < Flameeyes@> jmbsvicetto?
21:17  * dberkhol  checks -dev
21:18 <     Jokey@> I'm not admin (yet)
21:18 <     Jokey@> I have been co-mentor last two years only
21:18 < Flameeyes@> Jokey, I thought you were interesting to be :P
21:18 <     Jokey@> yup;)
21:18 < Flameeyes@> [noone is admin right now anyway as we haven't been accepted yet]
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21:21 <   lu_zero@> hm?
21:22 <Betelgeuse@> let's move on
21:22 <Betelgeuse@> Or this meeting will be quite long
21:22 <      amne@> yeah, kind of slowish today
21:22 <     Jokey@> ack :)
21:22 <      amne@> please folks, smoke less weed and abuse more amphetamines next time ;-)
21:23  *  lu_zero has been killed by bureaucracy this morning
21:23 -!- antesenamon [n=antesena@host-89-230-10-219.bilgoraj.mm.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:23 <   lu_zero@> I crumbled asleep at about 5.40PM
21:24 <   KillerX > +1, it's getting late here (3 am already)
21:24 -!- antesenamon [n=antesena@host-89-230-10-219.bilgoraj.mm.pl] has joined #gentoo-council
21:25  *    Jokey looks at next topic
21:25 <      amne@> if we wait til the next council meeting to finish this, would it be too late for SoC?
21:25 <     Jokey@> I think so,
21:25 < dberkholz@> we don't need to wait for scheduled meetings
21:25 < dberkholz@> we can have an interim one, or just vote on the -council list
21:26 <   KillerX > amne: Yep, student projects would have been accepted by then.
21:26 <   lu_zero@> what is left to be discussed?
21:26 <     Jokey@> we should keep the option to have a quick meeting based on what we hear from soc
21:26 <      amne@> KillerX: gah
21:26 <      amne@> dberkholz: ok, let's do it like that
21:26 <Betelgeuse@> Well didn't we decided to a) register as admins b) devs can be students c) admins decide which ones are approved
21:26 <Betelgeuse@> ^Does anyone object to the above
21:26 <   KillerX > sounds good
21:26 <   KillerX > mentors can, of course, refuse to mentor devs who apply as students (what Flameeyes will do :-D_
21:27 <Betelgeuse@> yes
21:27 <      amne@> Betelgeuse: not really, but having some more details from our admins can't hurt
21:27 <   lu_zero@> I'm ok on having the council registered as admin
21:28 <     Jokey@> +1 with lu_zero
21:28 < dberkholz@> i'm not sure about council members being extra admins, but i don't have any strong position on that. the others are fine
21:28 <   lu_zero@> I'd leave up to the single mentor to decide what to do with the slot
21:28 <   KillerX > I must say reading the logs is a lot more fun that actually attending a council meeting :-p
21:29 <   lu_zero@> still I care much about having more visibility on the process
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21:29 <   lu_zero@> the blog aggregation and stuff is fine in theory but should be enforced a bit more
21:30 < Flameeyes@> we should really find more developers to sponsor projects and be ready to act as mentors
21:30 < Flameeyes@> but we're coming late by now actually
21:32 < dberkholz@> could someone briefly sum up the reason for having council people be soc admins?
21:32 < dberkholz@> i tried reading the log but it didn't stand out
21:32 <   lu_zero@> Flameeyes I forgot to put my proposal about the gentooificator
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21:32 <   lu_zero@> now that you make me think
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21:34 <     Jokey@> he should fix his client ;)
21:34 -!- Philantrop [n=Philantr@gentoo/developer/philantrop] has joined #gentoo-council
21:34 < Flameeyes@> konversation, for sure...
21:34 -!- Philantrop [n=Philantr@gentoo/developer/philantrop] has quit [Excess Flood]
21:34 < Flameeyes@> [and too many channels, I suppose, never happened to me]
21:34 -!- Philantrop [n=Philantr@gentoo/developer/philantrop] has joined #gentoo-council
21:34 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, well, in my view to break up ties
21:35 < dberkholz@> ok, so council members will not be "active" admins, just tiebreakers?
21:35 < Flameeyes@> well unless they want to be active admins/mentors I suppose :)
21:35  * Flameeye will be an active admin/mentor
21:36  *  lu_zero too
21:39 <      amne@> well. so we just have people being admins/mentors and that's it?
21:39 <      amne@> would work for me
21:39 -!- mpagano [n=mpagano@gentoo/developer/mpagano] has joined #gentoo-council
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21:40  *    Jokey drinks some coke
21:40  * Flameeye looks angrily at Jokey 
21:43 <     Jokey@> Flameeyes: want some, too? sugar-free ;)
21:43 <     Jokey@> anyway
21:43 <      amne@> time to move on to the next topic?
21:43 < Flameeyes@> can't :/
21:43 < Flameeyes@> amne, I'd say so, next toping would be?
21:43 <   KillerX > package maintainer
21:43 <   KillerX > let's finish that so I can go to sleep :-p
21:43 <   lu_zero@> ok
21:43 <     Jokey@> right, go ahead KillerX
21:43 <   KillerX > to begin with, I'd like to find out what devs think a devs responsibility is
21:43 <   johnjay > I'm not a developer anymore but can I put in my 2 cents here?
21:43 <   KillerX > if all we do is write ebuilds and maintain them, then as folks pointed out in the mailing list, streamlining the recruitment process and adverstising proxy-maintainers more is the right way to go
21:43 < Flameeyes@> myself I'd say the first and most important would be"don't hinder others" (users using the package, developers working with the package)
21:43 <   KillerX > But, I think we can split devs into two categories: those who just write+maintain ebuilds, and others who do more wide-ranging stuff
21:44 <   KillerX > the former don't need to give the staff quiz, and need access rights only to small portions of the repository
21:44 <   lu_zero@> KillerX I'd like to know what's so horrible about the current recruitment process
21:44 < dberkholz@> johnjay: put it in whenever you want, as long as it's on-topic =)
21:44 <    vapier@> you'll have to be more specific
21:44 <    vapier@> one package can be depended on by a lot more
21:45 <   KillerX > lu_zero: It's too formal, and a lengthy procedure for someone who just wants to maintain 2 or 3 packages in the tree
21:45 <   lu_zero@> KillerX no
21:45 <   lu_zero@> I want something more detailed
21:45 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, if one just wants to maintan 2 or 3 packages, I'd say proxy maintainership is the way to go
21:45 <   lu_zero@> and to the point
21:45 <    vapier@> also, there's the issue of global scope ... one bad ebuild can do mad things
21:46 <   lu_zero@> I mean how many question we feed to the possible dev?
21:46 <   KillerX > Giving proxy-maintainers commit access, and making the position "formal" will go a long way in attracting more contributors
21:46 <   johnjay > When I was a developer, my goal was to make sure the pkg worked, and that I would always be ontop of the pkg news wrt to security, dev etc ... all things not necessarily only related to writing/maintaining the ebuild
21:46 <   lu_zero@> how formal is the process by itself?
21:47 < Flameeyes@> I sincerely think that as long as we don't have safeguards like staged trees, a way to sign singular ebuilds/manifests entries, a global gentoo keychain etc etc etc we should keep access to the repository limited to those who _does_ take the lengthy process
21:48 <   johnjay > Also, is there some sort of digest lint's nowadays? Such that the committed Manifest is checked against the central repo?
21:49 < Flameeyes@> johnjay, what do you mean?
21:49 <   KillerX > vapier: The guy will still have to do the ebuild quiz. He can skip the bearucracy
21:49 <   KillerX > (however that is spelt)
21:50 <   johnjay > Flameeyes: sometimes when I emerge world, I will get a digest failed error, even though the file was fully received etc ... and this stops the entire process. Often times it's that the developer forgot to regenerate the digest or something along the lines...
21:50 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: What is the extra stuff besides doing the quiz?
21:50 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: Doing the quiz is the time taking part.
21:51 < Flameeyes@> johnjay, uhhh the digest is handled altogether by repoman
21:51 <   johnjay > Perhaps and I'm just throwing an idea out there, but a post-commit hook which would check the Manifest against the files on the central repo?
21:51 < Flameeyes@> if a developer is committing without repoman I'd probably kick him myself ;)
21:51 <   johnjay > Heh
21:51 <Betelgeuse@> johnjay: Or just against the committed files...
21:51 < Flameeyes@> other causes can be a) upstream changed the distfile (stupid upstream)
21:51 <   johnjay > Well it does happen, often I find myself doing a --digest just to get through the process
21:51 <Betelgeuse@> but OT
21:51 < Flameeyes@> b) the infamous Attic/ problems with $Header$
21:52 <   lu_zero@> I think we should go back to the main topic
21:52 <   KillerX > hmm, alright
21:52 < Flameeyes@> c) $Header$ in patches
21:52 <   johnjay > Err sorry if I went off topic
21:52 < Flameeyes@> yeah Betelgeuse and lu_zero are right :P we can discuss that in a separate forum
21:52  *  johnjay goes away
21:52 <   KillerX > Betelgeuse: the staff quiz?
21:52 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, the staff quiz is just for staffer
21:52 <   KillerX > damn I have a horrible lag :(
21:52 < Flameeyes@> the two quizzes are the ebuild quiz and the end of mentoring quiz
21:53 < Flameeyes@> [for ebuild developers, that is]
21:53 <   KillerX > Flameeyes: All devs have to write the staff quiz.
21:53 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, did it change in the last year?
21:53 < Flameeyes@> because I came back as a dev less than an year ago and I only did ebuild and eom quizzes
21:53 <   lu_zero@> how many questions it is?
21:53 <   KillerX > Well that was the case when I was recruited...
21:53 < Flameeyes@> 40?
21:54 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, uh... I came in originally in 2005, I did have some recruits in 2006, I think you're probably confusing the staff quiz with the eom quiz
21:54 < dberkholz@> one of those quizzes includes the gentoo hierarchy, when to use -core, etc stuff
21:54 < dberkholz@> i think that's the section KillerX is talking about
21:54 < Flameeyes@> should be part of the eom quiz iirc
21:54 <   lu_zero@> still
21:55 < Flameeyes@> but it's really more "a boring 10 minutes" imho rather than the lengthy part of the process.. just a way to make sure the person knows how to contribute properly...
21:55 <   lu_zero@> how many questions are due to get devship?
21:55 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero, about 40 iirc
21:55 <Betelgeuse@> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt
21:55 <Betelgeuse@> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/end-quiz.txt
21:55 <   KillerX > Well, we can't skip the technical questions, that's for sure.
21:55 <Betelgeuse@> staff quiz == first part of ebuild quiz
21:55 <   KillerX > and I think I'll agree with the fact that the staff quiz takes a lot lesser time than the other two
21:56 <   lu_zero@> hmm
21:56 <   lu_zero@> still you felt that the process is too taxing
21:56 <   lu_zero@> if the quizzes aren't the problem
21:56 <   KillerX > It is indeed, especially if your goal is just to maintain packages.
21:56 < Flameeyes@> 45, I was near enough ;)
21:57 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, then just accept proxy maintainership
21:57 <   lu_zero@> what is the part we should overhaul?
21:57 < Flameeyes@> maybe if we could move to, say, GIT, it would be simpler to be a proxy maintainer, but that's beside the point anyway
21:58 <   lu_zero@> still I'd like to have some control about proxy maintenance
21:58 <   KillerX > lu_zero: The quizzes themselves?
21:58 < Flameeyes@> lu_zero, what you mean?
21:58 <   lu_zero@> KillerX how?
21:58 <   lu_zero@> Flameeyes make sure people don't abuse trust
21:58 <   lu_zero@> KillerX 45 questions
21:58 <   lu_zero@> that means at most 5 hours
21:59 <   lu_zero@> 5 hours aren't exactly a long time
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21:59 <   KillerX > lu_zero: Yes, but a lot of them test things which are not normally required for maintaining an ebuild
21:59 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, like?
21:59 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: like?
21:59 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, jinx!
21:59 <   KillerX > "Explain briefly the purpose of the following tools: grep, cut, sed, cat, wc, awk"
22:00 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: you are not going to use those in your ebuilds?
22:00 <   KillerX > We should really avoid these exam type of questions
22:00 <   KillerX > and get straight to the practical stuff
22:00 <Betelgeuse@> or basic Unix command line utils in general
22:00 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, uh, I might find awk optional, but the rest...
22:00 < Flameeyes@> I admit the first time I took the test I just rephrased the first phrase in man $foo
22:01 < dberkholz@> that seems pretty practical to me. explaining the purpose is about the same as saying when you need to do some task, you know which tool to use
22:01 <   KillerX > er, sure you are, but it would be better to ask 'how would you do task XXX' instead of 'write a short description of YYY'
22:01 <   KillerX > these essay-type questions take up maximum type to answer
22:01 <   KillerX > s/type/time
22:01 < Flameeyes@> essay-type? o_o
22:01 < Flameeyes@> I sincerely think a single one-liner to explain each tool isn't an essay
22:01 <Betelgeuse@> KillerX: What part of Explain briefly is unclear?
22:01 <   lu_zero@> KillerX I'm afraid we perceive the questions and the possible answers differently
22:01 < Flameeyes@> and probably is simpler than providing a solution to an use case
22:02 < Flameeyes@> especially since the use case someone might solve using, say, perl
22:02 <      igli > hehe
22:02  * Betelgeu uses inline python for solving eclass problems
22:02 <   KillerX > heh
22:02 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, better than java for sure ;)
22:02 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: I need to work with xml in eclasses
22:02 <   lu_zero@> Flameeyes inline C
22:02 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, yes I know
22:02 <   KillerX > alright, actually that was about the only theoretical question :-/
22:03 < Flameeyes@> myself I have doubts about 5 and 6 (part I) of the ebuild quiz, for just ebuilders
22:03 <   lu_zero@> KillerX sorry if you feel attacked
22:03 < Flameeyes@> but they are two questions, about 40 seconds to answer each
22:03 <   KillerX > lu_zero: Not at all, I see your point now.
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22:03 <Betelgeuse@> Flameeyes: 6 is to avoid Seeds
22:03 <   lu_zero@> still I'd like to solve the root of the problem
22:03 <   KillerX > okay, so in conclusion - let's advertise the proxy-maintainer position more
22:03 <      amne@> Flameeyes: if you know the answer, of course
22:04 <   lu_zero@> why the process is considered that problematic
22:04 <      amne@> but i guess the point of the quiz is that people know the answer afterwards
22:04 < Flameeyes@> amne, I sincerely think to have access to the repository knowing the answer is a requirement
22:04 <   KillerX > and maybe, somewhere in the distant future, we can move to a better VCS, wherein it would be easier for proxy-maintainers to make sure their code is committed.
22:04 < Flameeyes@> Betelgeuse, note the "for just ebuilders" ;)
22:04 < dberkholz@> KillerX: heh, check out bug #207056
22:04 <    jeeves > dberkholz: https://bugs.gentoo.org/207056 enh, P2, All, kavol@email.cz->pr@gentoo.org, NEW, pending, please promote Sunrise overlay
22:04 <      amne@> Flameeyes: yeah, but that's why people may take more than a couple of hours to complete the quiz
22:05 < Flameeyes@> to be honest, whenever I consider someone for proxy maintainership, I ask for the second part of ebuild quiz to a minimum
22:05 < Flameeyes@> amne, I'm not expecting anybody to become dev of _any_ project in less than a couple of hours
22:05 < Flameeyes@> do I even have to use Debian as an example?
22:05 <Betelgeuse@> amne: It takes more than a couple hours to talk with me.
22:05 <      amne@> Flameeyes: yeah, but that was the argument for having a new dev rank
22:05 <     Jokey@> dberkholz: interesting bug
22:06 <   KillerX > Well the basic idea was to make proxy-maintainers feel more recognized
22:06 < Flameeyes@> amne, as long as you have access to the repository, I consider you a dev :P cvs acl might help but I wouldn't expect even a new position to take less than a couple of hours ... or even a couple of days
22:06 <      amne@> Betelgeuse: that was wrt having the quiz done in a couple of hours as someone said above ;-)
22:07 < dberkholz@> Jokey: agreed
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22:07 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, well we could even try to tune down the gentoo's developers status for that ;) for instace we could use less resonant mail addresses than @gentoo.org everytime we commit :P
22:07 <   KillerX > :)
22:08 <   KillerX > Git would solve the problem perfectly
22:08 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
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22:09 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, could easily create a few more though :P and we're talking about migrating to something else for... four years now?
22:10 <Betelgeuse@> I think git wasn't a good option last time when looked at because of performance problems.
22:10 <   KillerX > Well, it can't be helped until someone with loads of time joins infra
22:10 <Betelgeuse@> I think those should could be solved by now.
22:10 < dberkholz@> Betelgeuse: it was lacking features we want
22:10 < dberkholz@> might be an soc project to implement those missing features
22:10 < dberkholz@> robbat2 knows the details
22:11 <   KillerX > indeed
22:11 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, yeah that would be a good idea indeed
22:11 <   KillerX > Okay, so in summary - No need for a new position, adverstise proxy-maintainers/overlays more (i'll probably make a gmn article out of it ;)). Anyone has anything more to add?
22:11 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, blog about it, works a lot too :)
22:11 <      amne@> sounds good.
22:12 <   KillerX > Heh, I was waiting for my feed to get fixed. just happened today :)
22:14 -!- igli [n=igli@unaffiliated/igli] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:14 < Flameeyes@> by the way, I know this is more PR's work but as donnie is here...
22:14 < Flameeyes@> any idea about a redesign of the site?
22:15 <   lu_zero@> another misc item
22:15 <   lu_zero@> what about stale gleps?
22:15 < Flameeyes@> it is more than an year since Curtis disappeared, afaict, did the project volatilise entirely?
22:15 <   lu_zero@> autoretire them after a while?
22:17 < dberkholz@> Flameeyes: a few folks are playing around with it
22:17 < dberkholz@> Flameeyes: basically looking to get the whole site moved to css but functionally identical, then consider redesign work as a second step
22:17 < dberkholz@> Flameeyes: nichoj and ali_bush, mainly
22:17 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, okay I'm pleased to hear it is being worked on, that's enough to me :)
22:18 < dberkholz@> we're doing it that way because it's a lot harder to object to a css move when it doesn't come along with a ton of visual changes too, so it should go through easily
22:18 <   KillerX > alright folks, 4 am here, better go to sleep now else I'll miss class in the morning. Good night!
22:18 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, yeah agreed
22:18 < dberkholz@> good night sir.
22:18 <      amne@> bye KillerX
22:18 < Flameeyes@> KillerX, sweet dreams
22:19 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit []
22:20 <      amne@> so, on to the next point?
22:20 < Flameeyes@> amne, what's the next point?
22:21 <      amne@> uhm
22:21 <      amne@> open floor? or did i miss anythin in the agenda?
22:21 <Betelgeuse@> amd64
22:21 <Betelgeuse@> but that was discussed briefly at the start
22:21 <      amne@> yupp
22:21 <      amne@> not sure if anyone wants to add to that now
22:21 <Betelgeuse@> does anyone have anything to add?
22:21 < dberkholz@> what's the amd64 summary, pleaes?
22:22 <Betelgeuse@> http://rafb.net/p/Idqz6c86.html
22:22 < dberkholz@> the other 2 things are the "old topics" -- what's up with glep 46 clarification, and eapi=0 progress from Halcyon 
22:22 <Betelgeuse@> relevant log parts
22:22 < Flameeyes@> Halcyon, you around for the eapi=0 update?
22:27 <      amne@> anyone remember what happened with glep 46? i think there was a brief conversation with dev-zero after the meeting, but i don't remember the outcome, nor can i find it in my inbox
22:27 <      amne@> and the glep hasn't been updated it seems
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22:30 <      amne@> uh well this meeting is really slow today
22:33 < dberkholz@> well, that's all the topics since those folks aren't around
22:33 <     Jokey@> gah
22:33 <     Jokey@> distraction--
22:34 <Betelgeuse@> anyone have open floor items?
22:34 < dberkholz@> we seem to be doing a really bad job of actually having people we need at the meetings
22:34 < dberkholz@> next time i make an agenda, i'll have to put together a list of people who need to show up
22:34 < dberkholz@> that will of course also require that i actually make an agenda in advance, and show up on time myself
22:34 <      amne@> dberkholz: sounds like a good idea
22:34 <     Jokey@> dberkholz: yep, maybe we should have the agenda ready 24h before actual meeting so people can take notes to show up
22:34 <      amne@> dberkholz: heh
22:34 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, we should think about using google calendar
22:35 < Flameeyes@> if we actually decide upon that I might even use firefox :P
22:35 <      amne@> someone (forgot who) also suggested to post the agenda on www.gentoo.org - if it's ready before the meeting, that could be done too
22:35 < dberkholz@> Flameeyes: maybe so.
22:35 < dberkholz@> seems like there might be enough meetings and such, and it's easier than setting up our own groupware
22:36 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, we could also use it to write down stuff like stabilisation plans and last rites and similar
22:36 < Flameeyes@> could probably also avoid users to wonder "when is $foo supposed to go stable?"
22:36  *    Jokey used to tag bug subjects with (due 13-03-2008)
22:37 <     Jokey@> and file it the moment the package is bumped
22:37 < Flameeyes@> Jokey, I used to prepare stable bugs in advance with a similar status whiteboard
22:37 < Flameeyes@> but then arch teams hated me for filing them too soon -_-;
22:37 < dberkholz@> pkgcore-checks has something that can already do that
22:37 < dberkholz@> i'm sure some other tools do too
22:37 <     Jokey@> Flameeyes: I don't cc arches until bug is due heh ;)
22:38 < Flameeyes@> dberkholz, well, I suppose it looks when it was added to the tree :P
22:38 < dberkholz@> yeah
22:38 < Flameeyes@> but for instance I don't want pambase to get stable just after 30 days, I want to test it at least 60
22:38 <      amne@> if no one minds, i'll leave now, gotta catch some sleep
22:39 < Flameeyes@> nighty night amne
22:39 <      amne@> nite folks
22:39 < dberkholz@> would be another possibility for adding to metadata.xml
22:39 < dberkholz@> stabletime
22:39 < Flameeyes@> so I'm going to start looking at a calender for gentoo now :P I'll report on -core or -dev whenever I have something
22:39 < dberkholz@> Flameeyes: might be nice to work with #gentoo-pr people on that
22:41 < dberkholz@> ok, any more topics?
22:45 <   lu_zero@> apparently not
22:48 < dberkholz@> alright, this meeting is over
22:48 < dberkholz@> i'll send out a summary later tonight
22:49 < dberkholz@> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dberkholz/20080313-summary.txt is where it's at, not sure if i'm going to make more changes
22:49 < dberkholz@> suggestions welcome