path: root/meeting-logs/20090817.txt

13:58 < ssuominen> It's 1800 UTC?
13:59 <@leio> in 2 minutes, yes
13:59 <@dertobi123> not yet
13:59  * ssuominen runs ntpdate
14:00 <+tanderson> now it is
14:00 < ahf> hah.
14:00 <+tanderson> ahf: did I get it at :00 ? :)
14:00 < ahf> you did.
14:00 <@leio> Ok. Who's chairing?
14:01 -!- gwendely [n=Administ@4103ds5-ynoe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #gentoo-council
14:02 <@leio> lets start with a rollcall then first..
14:03 <@Calchan> here
14:03 < ssuominen> here (proxying solar)
14:03 <@ulm> \o/
14:03 <@dertobi123> <- here
14:04 < ssuominen> I never saw an agenda for this meeting. There's none?
14:04 <@dertobi123> there's none
14:04 < ssuominen> nod
14:04 <@dertobi123> besides the request to discuss "10 years gentoo"
14:05 <@Calchan> isn't anybody shamed?
14:05 <@leio> lu_zeor/lu_zero, betelgeuse?
14:05 <@dertobi123> and if zmedico is around - i'd happy to get a status update of eapi-3 implementation in portage :)
14:05 <@Calchan> because I know I am
14:05 < ssuominen> well, latest about 10.0 livecd's (from what I know)
14:05 <@dertobi123> +be
14:05 < ssuominen> 00:37 <likewhoa> updates now are about 40 new packages and kernel changes for both x86/amd64, plan on adding multiple kernel images to the isos and  hybridiso option for the image next.
14:05 < ssuominen> likewhoa won't be back until friday from his trip to work on the cd's
14:06 -!- Poly-C_atwork [n=Poly-C@gentoo/developer/Polynomial-C] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
14:06 < likewhoa> Calchan: why the shame?
14:06 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: because we did suck on putting an agenda together
14:06 <@dertobi123> which we wanted to do a week beforehand
14:06 < likewhoa> dertobi123: agreed
14:06 < ssuominen> likewhoa: good, you're around :)
14:07 <@Calchan> not only that, we did suck at doing anything since last meeting
14:07 < likewhoa> ssuominen: just got here as leio said 'lets start'
14:07 <@ulm> Calchan: it's holiday season though
14:08 < ssuominen> yeah, it's quiet as usual this time of year
14:08 <@ulm> but that's no real excuse
14:08  * likewhoa agrees
14:08 <@dertobi123> we should appoint someone who does make sure we have an agenda for next meeting (one week beforehand)
14:08 < likewhoa> on at being not an excuse that is
14:09 <@dertobi123> if noone else wants to - i can do that
14:09 <@ulm> dertobi123++
14:09 <@leio> I did some poking around at some projects I deem council related, but nothing noteworthy indeed, work deadlines and high priority other gentoo work in case of me
14:10 <@leio> I was going to propose making some responsible for the next meeting as well, and always so. I think we briefly discussed that last time too?
14:10 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: you have the specs in some public repository? any images to test around somewhere?
14:10 <@dertobi123> we should make sure that cd will be tested as much as possible
14:11 < likewhoa> dertobi123: I put up some images at http://weboperative.com/gentoo/downloads/livecds
14:11 < ssuominen> Would something as marking 2008.0 profiles deprecated and instructing users to move into 10.0 ones at the same day when new LiveCD's are out something that needs councils attention?
14:11 <@dertobi123> whee? installer?
14:11 < likewhoa> and specs are at svn co svn://anonsvn.gentoo.org/releng/trunk/releases/10.0
14:11 <@dertobi123> cool :)
14:12 < likewhoa> dertobi123: well they will be livedvds, but initially was working on the livecd specs
14:12 <@leio> ssuominen: maybe. I personally wouldn't want casual users moving over earlier than the release though
14:12 <@leio> likewhoa: feel free to contact me about any GNOME related things, I'd like to see that top notch there
14:12 < ssuominen> leio: people have already started moving, i don't see anything bad in that
14:12 < likewhoa> dertobi123: currently new changes have not been committed but I do have a request for some testers.
14:13 < ssuominen> i guess it's more of covering my own ass by requesting councils support for that move (dropping in the deprecated file to all arch's 2008.0 profiles when the livecds are out)
14:13 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: i very much dislike marking the 2008.0 as deprecated that soon
14:13 < likewhoa> leio: well desktop is xfce but I could use some testers for any gnome apps that might be on there. :)
14:13 < ssuominen> ;)
14:13 <@leio> ssuominen: I mostly have profile reorganizations in mind, changing some things potentially drastically (e.g my gnome profile mail)
14:14 <@leio> likewhoa: it should be GNOME, it was made to be xfce for space reasons, which I believe are solved by now, or can be solved on time
14:14 <@leio> (in 2008.0)
14:14 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: haven't checked yet, but mailwrapper isn't use.default'ed anymore, right?
14:14 < ssuominen> remi wanted to unmask new xcb in 10.0 ones (from package.mask) and there's make.defaults change that USE=qt3 and USE=esd isn't default anymore
14:14 < ssuominen> otherwise they are identical
14:14  * leio thinks we are a bit uncoordinated here
14:14 < ssuominen> dertobi123: see above reasoning ^
14:15 < likewhoa> leio: well solar mentioned he wanted it to be a livedvd since it will be circulated on some IT magazines, hence why I started to add new packages. I guess we need to discuss this with him.
14:15 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: you want a bug report to remove mailwrapper or can you just commit that "fix"? :)
14:16 <@dertobi123> leio: we are - basically because we lack an agenda
14:16 < ssuominen> dertobi123: i'm not familiar with that issue in fact, you dropped that like a bomb ;)
14:16 < likewhoa> leio: I have no problem using gnome.
14:16 <@dertobi123> i'd prefer to have both kde and gnome and to make users able to choose what they want to use ;)
14:16 < ssuominen> targets/server/make.defaults has make.defaults of mailwrapper
14:17 < ssuominen> *use default
14:17 <@ulm> maybe it would be a good thing to have a tracker bug for the livecd/dvd package set
14:17 <@leio> likewhoa: lets discuss that later in my GNOME team capacity, I pretty much hear about you the first time now
14:17 <@dertobi123> ulm: yep
14:18 < likewhoa> leio: ok
14:18 <@leio> yeah, KDE too on LiveDVD case makes perfect sense. We need all of the desktops on there work good though, which is a good motivation to get it into good shape for non-installer regular use as well. Release as a QA motivator
14:19 <@ulm> and we need Emacs of course ;)
14:19 <@ulm> which is not on any install media currently
14:19 <@dertobi123> and we need a bug to track those requests ;)
14:19 <@ulm> yes ;)
14:19 <@Calchan> has anybody talked to releng about this new livecd/dvd?
14:20 <@leio> by my understanding solar has
14:20 <@leio> ssuominen?
14:21 < ssuominen> yes, solar has, and agaffney should be informed as well
14:21 < tove> "request to discuss "10 years gentoo"" -- does it only mean a new release? was it on any mailinglist?
14:21 < ssuominen> (the profiles was created by my, solar and agaffney's consensus)
14:21 < ssuominen> for the release
14:22 < ssuominen> dertobi123: there's dozens of ebuilds using mailwrapper in IUSE, i'd very much like to get more information on that move :)
14:23 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: plain simple: doesn't work, lots of bugs, deprecated.
14:23 < likewhoa> I need a way to know which users will be available to test the iso images as they are made. What can be done?
14:23 < ssuominen> dertobi123: in short: the IUSE should be removed from affected ebuilds and mailwrapper masked for removal?
14:24 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: that's a partially happening for quite some time, i've been slacking on getting mailwrapper removed for quite some time though ;)
14:24 < ssuominen> dertobi123: i can pull some treecleaning strings ;P
14:24 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: what about including smolt-gentoo and collecting hardware-profiles from the test images?
14:25 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: if you need testers some forums announcement or just a thread in the forums is a good start to get "a few" testers :)
14:25 < ssuominen> sticky forums thread
14:26 < likewhoa> I also like to make a request on #gentoo's topic mentioning the upcoming "screenshot contest" we could use more exposure on that.
14:27 <@dertobi123>  #gentoo's topic isn't something the council needs to discuss
14:27 < bonsaikitten> likewhoa: mention it in #-ops, we should find some space in /topic
14:28 < likewhoa> dertobi123: I might need to talk to you about your last request as I am not that familiar with smolt usage, but I'll look into it myself before hand.
14:29 <@dertobi123> seeing that we have only about 6 or 7 weeks left until our 10th birthday, what about weekly status updates on the -dev lists?
14:29 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: sebastian pipping is working on that (summer of code project), see the -dev list or just mail him :)
14:29 < likewhoa> i will
14:30 < likewhoa> I won't be active until this coming friday, but I have lots of updates for the spec file and new images.
14:31 <@leio> any other things the council should see happen for the 10th birthday, release related and any other plans or activities?
14:33 <@dertobi123> birthday parties around the world would be cool - but not really having pr@g.o that's not realistic
14:33 < likewhoa> I am not sure if catalyst will support multiple desktop environments and I am sure it won't support multiple kernels specially 32/64bit kernels and hybridiso to name a few. I will need to customize the image for those options and more.
14:34 <@dertobi123> or talk to agaffney to get as much feature as possible into catalyst :)
14:35 < likewhoa> I will :)
14:35 < ssuominen> dertobi123: opened a bug for mailwrapper and punted it from make.defaults
14:35 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: :]
14:36 <@ulm> ssuominen: there's already bug 158003
14:36 < Willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/158003 "Remove mailwrapper"; Gentoo Linux, Applications; NEW; wschlich@g.o:wschlich@g.o
14:36 < ssuominen> utter fail
14:36 <@dertobi123> args
14:36  * ssuominen swears he did search
14:37 <@dertobi123> heh
14:37 <@dertobi123> my fault
14:37  * dertobi123 hides
14:37 <@leio> I'm sure council doesn't need to worry about these small things
14:37 <@leio> regarding birthday parties, we should see what PR and dabbott think of it
14:38 <@leio> (under small things, I mean specific bugs to get fixed by the release finalizing)
14:39 <@leio> I plan to arrange something simple birthday-wise locally at least in my case
14:39 < ssuominen> leio: true
14:39 <@dertobi123> dito
14:40 < likewhoa> Well I was planning on making a bunch of gentoo related screenshots, maybe something PR can work with me on.
14:40 < likewhoa> s/screenshots/wallpapers/
14:41 < likewhoa> maybe a 10 year roadmap 2010 calendar perhaps
14:42 < ssuominen> We used to have the gentoo artwork project too, but nothing came out of it..
14:42 < ssuominen> cla started it
14:42 -!- impulze [n=impulze@eta-ori.net] has joined #gentoo-council
14:42 < ssuominen> but might ask him still?
14:43 < likewhoa> I'll ping him then
14:45 <@leio> lets get this discussion going on mailing list too
14:45 <@leio> I trust ssuominen and likewhoa will start appropriate threads as appropriate for points of discussion, right? :)
14:46 < likewhoa> I'll let ssuominen start the initial thread.
14:46 <@leio> and tracker bug
14:47 < ssuominen> likewhoa: let's discuss shortly on query of the context of the thread (summarize above)
14:47 < likewhoa> that too, just pm the bug # and i'll cc myself.
14:47 < likewhoa> ok ssuominen
14:47 <@leio> ok, what else birthday related?
14:48 < likewhoa> leio: Whatever became of the new gentoo.org layout project? After 10 year we still have the same website.
14:49 < likewhoa> sorry if this is not a related discussion.
14:49 < ssuominen> the appropiate bugs to change gentoo docs are already open for 10.0 profile change, eselect profile usage, etc.
14:49 < ssuominen> will link them to the tracker
14:50 <@leio> I think there can be thread to ask what achievable could be done, and we should oversee things happening
14:50 <@leio> Should we move on to any other topics? (open floor, etc)
14:50 < ssuominen> yes
14:51 <@leio> dertobi123: so you take responsibility for the next meetings agenda? (and then next meeting someone else can take it for the next one after that)
14:51 <@dertobi123> leio: yep
14:52 <@leio> Next question would be - When is the next meeting
14:52 <@dertobi123> september 14th?
14:53 <@leio> I had some vague thoughts of earlier meeting due to missing agenda, but there was an automated (but Thursday mention) e-mail with no replies, so September 14th sounds good for me too. Others?
14:54 <@ulm> fine with me too
14:54 <@Calchan> godd for me too
14:54 <@Calchan> s/good/godd/
14:54 -!- dertobi123 changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Next meeting Monday September 14th 1800UTC.
14:54 <@Calchan> or vice versa
14:54 <@dertobi123> heh
14:54 <@dertobi123> anything left for today?
14:55 <@dertobi123> who can write a short summary?
14:55 <@leio> do we have tanderson doing that?
14:55 <+tanderson> leio: yes
14:55 <@dertobi123> ok, cool
14:55 <+tanderson> leio: I didn't see anything much to summarize though
14:56 < Arfrever> Re implementation of EAPI="3" in Portage: There was almost no progress in the last month :) .
14:56 <@leio> any idea when you can work on it? Now that we have meetings on Monday, weekend isn't that ideal
14:56 <@dertobi123> Arfrever: arg :(
14:56 < Arfrever> dertobi123: zmedico is busy with implementation of support for Python 3.*.
14:56 < Philantrop> tanderson: "The council discussed anything coming to their mind vaguely related to the 10th anniversary." <-- here you are! ;-)
14:57 < tove> "The decision was made to wait for lu_zero's vote by email.
14:57 < tove> " -- did he?
14:57 <+tanderson> Philantrop: not helpful
14:57 < tove> wrt public or alias drafts
14:58 <@dertobi123> tove: iirc no
15:00 <@ulm> in spite of EAPI 3 being delayed, we should start working on the EAPI 4 feature list at some time
15:01  * bonsaikitten stabs ulm a bit
15:01 < bonsaikitten> we should work on deprecating obsolete EAPIs then too
15:01 < Arfrever> I would like to request inclusion of support for multiple ABIs in EAPI="4".
15:02 <@ulm> Arfrever: we shouldn't have the council discuss all the details, imho
15:02 <@leio> at some time sounds good. Do we have a working group to "bless" to work on it at the beginning? :)
15:03 <@ulm> leio: that's exactly what we need
15:03 <+tanderson> leio: Calchan had some ideas about that iirc
15:04 <@Calchan> read my manifesto
15:05 <+tanderson> leio: did you mean "any idea when you can work on it" to me?
15:06 <@leio> tanderson: yes
15:06 <+tanderson> oh
15:06 <+tanderson> I'll work on it over the week
15:06 <+tanderson> I just used the weekend because it was simpler and it was only a 48 hour delay
15:08 -!- bearsh [n=quassel@adsl-245-48-fixip.tiscali.ch] has quit ["No Ping reply in 90 seconds."]
15:09 -!- bearsh [n=quassel@adsl-245-48-fixip.tiscali.ch] has joined #gentoo-council
15:09 <@dertobi123> so, we're done?
15:09 <@leio> regarding EAPI, I think if someone wants to kickstart the next one already without EAPI=3 being implemented in portage, I see the best course of action being to form a working group that the council can trust this work with and propose it on the mailing list or for the next meeting to discuss (mailing list should be quicker..). Any objections?
15:10  * Calchan wonders where leio got that idea from
15:10 <@leio> I don't know, disregard that
15:12 <+tanderson> I'll volunteer,
15:14 <@leio> it was my view of the most productive course of action, which was to propose something concrete to the council on mailing list to discuss or for the meeting, which to my knowledge is the normal course of action anyway, so that's where I got the idea from..
15:15 <@leio> us being proactive is another choice, but ulm is a council member... or we can choose to block any EAPI-4 work until 3 is done..
15:16 <@ulm> leio: of course eapi-3 should have priority, but we can't postpone work on 4 indefinitely
15:18 <@leio> being proactive would also be assigning someone (perhaps a council member) with the task of EAPI-4 and go from there
15:19 <+tanderson> why don't we have a general committee for these types of things(EAPI issues mainly)? (not my idea, but it's a good one)
15:20 <@leio> We are well over an hour, should we close the open floor and meeting and continue post-meeting and mailing list?
15:20 <@Calchan> I was under the impression we were done for a long time
15:22 <@leio> fine, we are or were done...
15:23 <@dertobi123> ok